June 2007 Riddling Riddles – Riddle 3

June 15, 2007

The same ol’ stuff… 🙂
Hope you guys enjoy it.

The theme is still food court.
For Q&A correspondence, please mail to riddleQA@gmail.com

3. Normal Riddle – No bad consequence in Riddle Raiders pioneer. (9 letters)


Answer: Roti Bakar

No = O
bad = anagram indicator 
bad consequence = TIBAKA
pioneer = initial indicator
Riddle Raiders pioneer = RR




  1. Hi guys, I got completely stumped as well! Got to agree with ckoh that the clue is well nigh unsolvable.

    I go by two standard cryptic principles, namely clarity and brevity.

    Clarity. A cryptic clue should do its duty, that is to point the solver to the right answer. I may chose to deceive, but at the same time I must give the solver a fair chance to arrive at the answer.

    To paraphrase the great cryptic clue setters, “I may not mean what I say, but I must say what I mean”.

    Brevity. The clue should be as brief as possible. I choose my words carefully, and extraneous words should be omitted as much as possible. Except for conjunctions and other link words, every other word should serve a purpose.

    Q : Make love to the Godfather. (6 letters)

    Care to guess the answer?

    Ah, ce5nt(Y). A lady? I think not. I’m no chauvinist, but HE certainly is a male Grandmaster, with many a conquest in many, many hunts. Reminds me of another great question (hint, hint)

    Q: ELIAM. (5 letters).

    Over and out.

  2. Dr Clue, without giving the answers away, allow me to narrow the field for the eager solvers:

    Q1: Answer is contained in Q2

    Q2: Brand of a sporting equipment

  3. yeah, the Ximenes standards of clueing. It has also been said that the mark of a badly written clue is that it is just looks like a clue – and nothing more.

  4. Dear Italians and 1 quack,
    You are spot on with regards to Q2.
    However, I don’t get your drift on your comments to Q1. The two Qs are completely unrelated.

    Q1 is intended to emphasise my point on clearity and brevity.

    Q2 is somehow related (vaguely) to the parenthesis found in ce5nt(Y)

  5. Italians et al,
    Dear me, i see you allusion to clue 2 now.

    Yeah, i humbly stand (or is it cringe?) corrected

  6. Well, well, well, what have we got here!? New room and a couple of new patrons!… business looking good, ckloh! Looks like you’ve managed to attract more gurus into this forum!

    Interesting clues too, Doc. I’m fascinated. Don’t know the solutions though. Just goes to show how much more I need to learn! I’m eagerly waiting for the answers. And I am a fast learner, promise. But don’t reveal the answers just yet. Let’s try a bit longer first.

  7. There’s another issue that I’ve been meaning to pursue since quite a few posts ago, but somehow never gotten around to it. I think it was ckloh who brought it up as a passing remark.

    This thing about closing the gap, in terms of scores, between ‘regular’ hunters and newbies. Are these concerns mainly due to business reasons, or are there other reasons? I would have thought that some of these ‘regulars’ have been hunting well over 10 years. Assuming all other things are equal, of course they are supposed to be better, more experienced, and hence more likely to get a better score? They have paid more tuition fees, so to speak.

    I am a new hunter myself, and I am paying tuition fees as well. But I can live with the idea of having to ‘earn’ my way up the ladder. Now that I’ve hunted 6 times, I want more. It doesn’t really worry me that I’ll have to hunt against the big boys. If I lose, then so be it. If I scored substantially lesser than the elites, then I’ll just have to improve further. Hopefully I’ll be able to beat some of these pros soon. Quite honestly I don’t expect to get all those experience that they have acquired painstakingly over 10 years within 6 hunts! BUT! I’m sure as hell gonna try to beat them!

    Losing is inpleasant. But if it were me, I do not appreciate distorting the ‘rules’ here and there so that I can close up the gaps against the pros.

    I suppose it’s very dispriting to score a meager 20 points if the pros are scoring 100 points. But shouldn’t that be the case? We newbies acknowledge that the pros are more experienced, more efficient etc, yet we complain when we get a miserable score compared to them?

    So now, by means of distortion of the ‘rules’ we get a more impressive 70 pts against 100 pts. Are we really happier now?

    Opinions, anyone?

  8. Masters and the chasing pack.

    ckoh, the regulars and the newbies are both the target audience for event organisers that sponsor treasure hunts. For commercial purposes, these business concerns would rather see that prizes are spread out among the masses. However the gap between the masters and the chasing pack can be rather wide. Some elite teams have been hunting for more than 10 years, with well oiled machinery and team mechanics. Their awesome track records speak volumes.

    Your attitude is to be commended. We try, we aspire, and that is the route to success. It is always a learning experience, and the experienced COCs always come up tricks, that usually trouble the newbies like us. the masters take it in their stride. As ce5nt said, SALT helps.

  9. (One good thing about blogs is one can change subjects back and forth and be oblivious of the other conversations. And this is one such attempt).

    ckoh : Did I recall you saying that you are going to the foodcourt to try pick something to set a question based on the current theme? An invite from ckloh?

    What I am going to say next is meant to humour and assumes you have a big heart (if this is not the case, please skip this and do not read further)-


    I think you will have to disqualify yourself from setting any questions based on this theme.

    You did not even know what nasi kandar was! How would you be able to tell if the “target” you pick is “typically found in food courts” or not?

    Being the hyper-feline person you are – you would go for the most interesting stuff and may not realise that it is not a typical food or beverage in foodcourts! (Both hands shielding my neck!)

    Think so?

    SO WHAT DO YOU DO? (Besides taking your hands off my neck):
    Here is a suggestion : ask ckloh to pick an item,
    then you set the question using the huge, admirable talent that you have!

  10. Time and again, we have these sticky situations in a hunt that affects one team or another. I can live with it for afterall to err is human. Unfortunately these situations occur for some CoCs more than others.

    I would like to hear from the bloggers how as CoCs they prefer the “victimised” team to react.

    Sticky situation 1
    Team A realises during the answer presentation that they had an alternative answer which is not just a fit but a “perfect fit”.

    Sticky situation 2
    Team A realises during the prize giving that they had “lost points” and could not account for it.

    How would the CoC want Team A to react to the above situations? Explain your preference.

    a) Inform me or my team immediately although I am busy with the presentation, so that I can verify it, and reorganize the positions.

    b) Inform me or my team immediately after the presentation but before the prize giving so that I can verify it and reorganize the positions. (not applicable for sticky situation 2)

    c) Inform me or my team immediately after the prize giving so that I can verify it. I will not be able to reorganize the positions, but I will find a suitable way to compensate Team A.

    d) I will not be able to reorganize the positions and will not compensate Team A but inform me anyway, so that I can launch an internal inquiry to find out the root cause, and prevent a similar occurrence in the future.

    e) I won’t do anything about it but inform me anyway.

    f) Don’t bother informing me. It is part and parcel taking part in treasure hunts.

  11. hehehehe… you don’t know the extent of my sense of humour, ce5nt! And yes, I do have a big heart.

    *containing hands in pocket, just in case they instinctively go to ce5nt’s neck…*

    We do have food courts here in KK! We may not have some of the choices that you have there. We have rojak, laksa etc. It’s just that NASI KANDAR, if indeed found here, is rare. And unfortunately, being a Chinese guy who can’t tahan the hot spicy food…. you know the rest. Oh I think I can still tell which are the common food in a food court, thank you!

    Woohoo… hyper-feline person huh? (whatever do you mean by that!?)… set question using the “huge, admirable talent” that I have! How can I be better than Master ce5nt? No, it seems that Doc addresses you as a Grandmaster! I’m beginning to feel like a fool right now. You should’ve given a hint like, say:

    “Still a lot to learn you have, my old padawan…”

    Then I’d understand…

    No, I haven’t forgotten ckloh’s request. But I didn’t promise. I said I’ll try. I have to deal with that training hunt first.

  12. Oh I’d like to take up on 2 Romans’ problem. But I really need to clear my desk! If these files are still here by Monday morning, I’m gonna hate myself. Later, 2 Romans.

  13. pink, you first.

    Now as I was saying, that ‘Kak Pah’ was a dangerous Q. I think most CoCs would agree that we have to be very, very careful when dealing with names. Is that ‘Kak Pah’ exclusively for Sharifah Aini?

    Or are you referring to the Kak Pah who played hard to get ‘cos she thought she’s as beautiful as that voluptous goddess, Jessica Alba? Well, didn’t she end up being a spinster and eventually worked as a Guru Tadika? Who knows if within that sector, there’s a board “KERJA KOSONG: GURU TADIKA”.

    Or maybe it’s Kak Pah, the lady with horrifyingly bad breath, who owns Kak Pah Minimart down the road; who’s got that peculiar habit of ‘adjusting’ her bra all the time? Didn’t she get that award ‘businesswoman of the year’? Did you check if there was a board with “BUSINESSWOMAN” within that sector?

    Perhaps there are thousands of Kak Pahs in Malaysia, you see — not only the singer Kak Pah. The arguments may be endless. I think that was what the commotion’s all about.

    When we say “Bill”, how can we be sure that we’re talking about “Bill Gates”? Why not “Bill Clinton”?

    Maybe — just maybe — if there was a ‘Datuk’ before ‘Kak Pah’ it would have been slightly different, I don’t know.

  14. 2Rs & 1I, tricky situations…

    In either case, I think I’d prefer that the interruption is after the presentation. I’m sure that other teams are also calculating along as the answers are revealed one by one. That the final score arrived at is inconsistent against that of the CoC’s is not surprising. CoCs are not perfect creatures. We try to be, but we are not. So, yes, we do make mistakes. Not frequently I hope.

    If we allow interruptions during the presentation, then it might take hours before the whole thing is over.

    But what happens after that? Now that is more interesting. As a CoC, if indeed I have erred to the detriment of a team, I would be responsible; I’ll give what that team deserves in terms of prizes. If I have to fork out the sum from my own pocket, then I guess that’s just what I’ll have to do. Then I’ll announce the amended positions. Obviously the impact is not the same as being announced the winner DURING the presentation, but that’s the next best thing.

    I don’t know about the hunters coming up with a more-perfect-fit answers than mine. I haven’t had many hunts, and I haven’t experience anything like that before. I hope I never will. Quite frankly, I don’t know how to deal with something like this!

    I hope my score tallied with yours during the Sutera, 2Rs. I was very careful not to make mistake for the top 3 places because the prizes were huge! I couldn’t afford to make that kind of mistake!

    OK, now let me turn the scene around and ask you in return, 2Rs.

    Scene 1:
    Team A finds that when the winners are announced, the CoC errs by giving them an extra point. That extra point, however, is not enough to make any difference in terms of positions of the winners. Would Team A inform the CoC?

    Scene 2:
    A dejavu: Team A finds that when the winners are announced, the CoC errs by giving them an extra point. But this time they move from 3rd to 1st place! (2nd & 3rd places decided on tie-breaker). The calculations of scores for all other teams are perfect, so those other teams are unaware of the mistake by the CoC. What would Team A do? Would you inform the CoC?

  15. Just to share a bit of my experience, 2Rs. During the Sutera, shortly after the prizes were announced, I received an SMS from a team. In fact, the participants are my close friends. They claimed that according to their calculation, they scored marginally more than the 10th place winner. They wanted to know what happened.

    To be quite honest, I was overwhelmed with panic! I was so exhausted during those 2 days, I hardly had the energy to move! But when I reached home, I went through their answers again. And I found the reason.

    You remember the Q: BECOMING A TEENAGER NEXT YEAR.

    The answer’s located on the round logo of CHIVAS REGAL with ‘AGED 12 YEARS’. The name of the shop was WAVE KARAOKE & LOUNGE.

    Quite an easy answer, actually, although perhaps a bit hard to spot for some people. Although my fiends are experienced hunters, for that particular Q, they somehow gave the answer: CHIVAS REGAL @ WAVE…

    But I wanted that ‘AGED 12 YEARS’. Otherwise, if only CHIVAS REGAL, what is there to connect with ‘becoming a teenager next year’? When I told them about it, they were equally surprised. They said they knew what was required. Maybe it was the time pressure, I don’t know.

    Anyway, it was such a scary experience for me.

  16. Oh I didn’t even realised that the 3rd riddle is already on! Well, here we go again. Yummy yummy.

  17. hahaha. ckoh, scene 2 nice one.

  18. Hear! Hear! This makes 3 CoCs I know who have responded as such.

    Well, in a perfect world, Team A should inform the CoC after the event, give up their positions and the rewards that goes with the position. But then again we do not live in a perfect world, do we? But … I would be willing to live in this perfect world, especially when I realise that the CoC is living in the same world as I do.

  19. After what we have been through, finally, a foodie question that deserves a high-5!

    This food is definitely in your parts of town (ckoh) but I’m not so sure it is found in Food Courts over there. Good luck! Don’t tear your hair out trying!

  20. bnize, that’s exactly my point. The ‘regulars’ spent more than 10 years honing their skills. They’ve been through a lot of ups and downs; pitfalls after pitfalls; they’ve been outwitted again and again throughout the years; they’ve won some; maybe lost a lot more. They are up there today because they’ve earned it! Why complain?

    My personal principle is that if I want to race, I will race fair and square. If my opponent has an advantage because he has a head start in terms of preparation, I can’t expect to ask him to slow down to wait for me.

    After all the sprinters are out of the block, and I see myself lagging behind, I’ll try my best to run faster. I don’t expect someone to put obstructions in the paths of these faster sprinters so that I can catch up.

    During a post-morten meeting, the organisers wanted me to make my questions easier in the future.

    “Make it less tricky lah!”…

    “Oh, ya kah? But if I make it easier, although the newbies can get more score, the regulars can get even more!”

    “Ah, then give challenges lah!”

    “Like how?

    “Up to you lah, coconut bowling; or ask them to run one big round at the Bukit Padang — something like that!”

    “But those KL teams are all-rounders, you know!”

    “Ah that is easy, just ‘localize’ you questions. Ask about Kadazan or Murut tribes!”

    Oh I am so sick of all this! It is truly deplorable. I don’t see myself going down to that level. Well, OKlah, maybe I’ll try to adjust a bit… but not that far!

    BTW, ‘localizing’ the questions won’t really work. Recently, in the DBKK hunt, we were required to identify the headgears of 5 local tribes. My team only got 3. How pathetic!

  21. Wow, really, 2Rs!? Hmmm… your mind works so fast. I’ll try to get the answer this time. There you go, ckloh, all this discussions are helping!

  22. Thanks for all the pointers, really learn alot of things from you all. A few of the familiar name get it already. And the first one to send to our mail is from Penang.

  23. Omg I just got home and things have stirred wild!!!

    Honor thy father and you earn your salt!!!

  24. Gee whiz, what a crowd and a very interesting crowd too. Makes me feel rather insignificant tho. What with gurus and grandmasters and all.

    Thanks for noticing this little pinkie,ckoh. About Kak Pah, the point I wanted to make was that while it was a ‘dangerous’ (read ‘stupid’?)Q, master players like yourself would probably think of a thousand possibilities and see nothing while an innocent like myself would unthinkingly spot a signage that fitted and shout “Eureka”!

    Likewise,if the question had been Bill? I wouldn’t start thinking of Clinton or Gates or Cosby but would instead browse with eyes that didn’t think and shout “Eureka!” at Monica Connections Enterprise or William Dorse Sdn Bhd. Hehe, just jesting, so don’t make fun of me about it.

    I’ll probably be a silent ‘listener’ to you masters extoling the virtues of cocs and clues from now on. However, before I retreat, let me just voice my disappointment in my, er, gender analyses. One, The sexist guy who considered mopping the floor “a task normally more commonly associated with women” …
    is feline! Two, the intelligent, lucid and witty gal…is Vincent! Arrrgh!

  25. agree with you, 3R&1I… this riddle deserves a High-5. Let’s toast to it!

  26. Alamak! I didn’t expect the rest are so fast with their solutions, ckloh! I arrived at my ‘tembak’ just before bed last night, but thought I’d like to sleep on it first. How many tries do I have?

  27. Well, not exactly commonly found in a food court here in KK, 13th second.

  28. Anyway, ckloh, you see how the solvers really appreciate this 3rd riddle? No crossjack required; ordinary words can do the job. Although that doesn’t mean the clue is not deceiving to a newbie. I think you’ve just earned everyone’s approval!

  29. The 13th second, I like your humour (wink wink), kind of reminds me of me (ha ha).

    Ckoh, sorry but I kind of disagree with your comments on crossjack. I think crossjack although not common to the layman is fine as it is searchable either in the dictionary and/or thesaurus – not like it is a Russian word that no one knows. After all, it is a killer riddle, isn’t it? However the question putforth needs an upheaval.

    Ckloh, some tips on question setting if you may allow me to. Try to remember these few rules.

    1) To quote Dr Clue, your question must give the solver a fair chance to arrive at the answer. Where possible try to narrow down the possibilities (Try not to use cities or actors in a question for example … these are too general and will put off some novice and regulars included).

    (2) Try giving the solver a subtle definition clue to complement the cryptic clue where possible.

    (3) Device your flow of sentence well (words should be wisely choosen to complement well and focus on the one topic) so that solvers cannot “see through” your question. Unfortunely your latest question (Riddle 3) was too “glaring” because of poor choice of words and I am not surprised that many solvers saw through your question within a couple of hours.

    (4) The sentence need not be heavy and littered with words to form a good question.

    Good luck on your next question.

  30. 2Rs & 1I, that word crossjack in itself may be OK for a ‘killer’ riddle. But the clue, taken as a whole, is somewhat too far-fetched in my opinion.

    Had the clue ended with “….. the sail”, I would probably have been a bit happier. In that case, I might grumble for a bit, but eventually would have to reluctantly accept it on the strength of ‘a killer riddle’.

    But no, the riddle ended with “…. the sheet”. It is that marathon distance from ‘sheet’ through ‘keping’, ‘lembar’, ‘lapis’, ‘page’, ‘layer’ etc….to zoom in on ‘sail’; and then beyond that, yet more distance to cover, that is disturbing me.

    If the solver was lucky, he would’ve immediately concentrated on the ‘tributaries’ of ‘sail’ to quickly get ‘crossjack’. But what would have happened if he spent the whole night investigating the ‘tributaries’ of all the other possible words? Strong men grow weak in the knees; elite hunters absolutely baffled, let alone all those average hunters. That is essentially my objection to crossjack. I didn’t think that the question, as it was, could be described as ‘fair chance to arrive at the answer’.

    But, 2Rs, you are obviously a more experienced hunter — a grandmaster, I’d say. I am therefore obliged to be guided by you.

    Take this 3rd riddle, for example. I thought it’s a piece of good work. I think it’s not very hard, but it wasn’t glaring to me either. After I figure it out, I had to think it over for a bit. I submitted the answer a good half a day after you, assuming that you submitted yours shortly after the riddle was posted. So I humbly bow down to you with respect.

  31. So just out of curiosity, ckloh, how many correct answers have you received up to now?

  32. Ckoh: No no, I definitely am not a grandmaster, let alone any master. Just a regular street chap who likes to work on codes especially the deceptive ones (not solvable at first glance but breakable with a bit of lateral thought).

    So please, do not extend me too much credit! Otherwise I may end up physically in cloud nine from too much laughter and cannot continue to contribute to this blog (which I enjoy).

    Now let me give my points on the topic at hand.

    Good cryptologists usually construct a code like how they would a sentence in an essay. The choice of words need to be aptly selected to complement the topic. If the topic is about a car, the complementing words (adjectives, nouns, verbs etc) should relate to the car. So at first glance the reader would not be capable to see through the deception.

    In ckloh’s third attempt, he failed to meet criteria 3. His topic in this case is “Riddle Raider pioneer” which I rate highly in terms of deception as it misleads the reader to ckloh himself (or one from his team) which is good, but the rest of the words that was selected unfortunately does not make any logical sense as it did not complement the topic and was just merely a choice of words to fill up the rest of the unused letters of his answer.

    As these words are glaringly out-of-place, experienced hunters especially, can easily see through this type of question and tell at first glance which is the keyword and which is the fodder. (This is what I mean by “too glaring”). So I repeat my statement that I am not surprised that many solvers solved ckloh’s 3rd Riddle within a couple of hours.

    P/S Note: I hope I did not give away too much to those still attempting this question. If I did, I am truly sorry.(genuine apologetic look!)

  33. ckloh,

    I hope you have not been offended by my frank comments. If you were, let me know, and I shall banish myself from this wonderful blog of yours immediately never to return.

    It is never in my nature to hurt and belittle. Just like you I am in the learning curve, and would like to learn as much as possible from the bloggers in this site, and exchange some opinions of mine in return. My wish is:

    (a) to see the birth of fresh talented CoCs to replace or complement the current crop should they choose to retire, so that this wonderful sport does not bleed away with their retirement and will continue to flourish.

    (b) to encourage newbies to stay in the sport, although I appreciate that the going will be tough at the beginning. I hope my subtle tips here and there will be beneficial to the newbies and encourage them to soldier on.

  34. Sorry for hogging the blog tonight. Besides having a mis-behaving pen, I am trying to while my time away productively during US Open intermissions.

    On the subject of fave questions (started by ce5nt), this is my little pet. Hopefully it will give bloggers waiting for Riddle 4 something to write about, while not distracting the ones still attempting Riddle 3.

    Q) Her point taken. It makes sense now, doesn’t it?
    A) Derina Fashion House

    I liked the deception it created on first glance.

    Tiger’s turn is up. Will share in my next blog why (I liked the deception).

  35. Dear 2R&1I, please don’t banish yourself from this blog. I really enjoy reading your comments. And as a newbie, I find them very useful… 🙂

  36. Good morning, folks!

    Ah, so you are a very, very detailed person, 2Rs&1I. Well, I’m not surprised that you are, considering that you’re one of the elite hunters — even if you deny being a grandmaster!

    Yes, indeed those first 3 words in the 3rd riddle do not blend well with the ‘Riddle Raiders pioneer’. But you have to admit that this 3rd riddle is a big improvement over the first 2. In fact, I dare say ckloh has improved by leaps and bounds in this 3rd attempt.

    If you are to be banished from this blog, 2Rs&1I, it would be such a shame. Each time I invite opinions from my employees during a meeting, hardly anyone would dare to speak up. Apparently they’re afraid that they’ll be blacklisted if they somehow offended me. Time and again, I’ve made it clear to them that I’m not such a sore loser. Bosses can learn from their employees too. We are not perfect! God willing, I hope I can still see a good idea/opinion when I see one. I may not agree with all your suggestions though! Let’s debate/discuss as much as we like; and then we can all learn something useful.

    Well, I’m off to take pictures (of answers etc). Interesting clue you have there. I’d love to work on it later. Hope to see you around, 2Rs&1I.

  37. Sticky Situations 1 & 2 posed by 2R1I, with options (a) to (f)

    I OFFER (g):
    I would intentionally create a “filler” between answer presentation and prize presentation, say for 21 minutes. E.g. lucky draws, “Sultan & I” sequel, etc.

    Then wait for reactions from the field (fingers and toes crossed!)

    If none – the party goes on!

    Else, you have 21 minutes or more to sort things out in the most amicable way possible – either with a definite decision or a deferred but acceptable one.

    I would in the end, offer fairness to all grieved parties without compromising the “advantaged” parties. It has to be part of the “cost of doing business” for a COC – even if it is a loss – because you cannot quantify the cost of damage to reputation. Don’t forget to say sorry!

    I would however not be able to advise – how “deep” down the list, would one try to amend matters (that would be a real disaster, wouldn’t it?)

  38. Have been quietly ‘listening’ to the masters and grandmasters and learning lots. Am breaking my silence coz I liked the Derina clue at first glance and saw thru it at second glance. So a language indicator is not necessary, 2Rs&1I? I’m asking coz I’m learning to craft clues but haven’t the confidence to share them as they still very rough at the edges…or perhaps you and the other masters wouldn’t mind looking at them and helping me improve on them? Loved your Hi5 and toasts hints :)tho Q3 was very obvious.

  39. 2R&1I, certainly happy you that you give me further pointers. Please keep on giving on your opinions. Definitely, not offended and feel honored getting some tips from the grandmaster.

    ckoh, fyi there are 7 correct answer so far. thanks for drafting an encouragement mail to our column. Will revert it soon.

    Didn’t log in since yesterday morning. Sorry, for reverting late. Keep it posted, please.

    FYI, we have reached a post view high on last Friday. We have 542 views in a day, beating previous high by more than 100 views in a day. Please get it posted.

  40. Pink, glad you liked the subtle hints I dropped. Call it my small contribution to help the newbies narrow down the search possibilities. Sure, post your work and we will be glad to discuss about it.

    I would typically leave out “local or equivalent” unless it helps make the question more deceptive. Hope the following 2 examples will help you understand better what I mean.

    Example 1
    “local” man is good as it forces the reader to consider Malays, Indians, Chinese etc, as possibilities against “orang or equivalent”

    Example 2
    “local” goat is not good as it is very glaring that the CoC wants kambing or equivalent. However, I could be wrong in that a local variety of goat does exist! But – you get my point.

  41. Back to my fave question. Here are some comments why I consider it a very well-rounded question.

    Simple words used yet deceptive at first glance. Definitely solvable and doesn’t put off readers with very generic names. A subtle definition clue was included to complement the cryptic clues. The words were carefully selected and are not out of place (flows very well as a complete storyline). No excess words were used that didn’t belong.

    All the above are my criterias on what makes a good question. Others may tend to disagree, or may have other criterias to add. But what I have laid out are the basic ones to note.

    To not spoil the fun for ckoh, I will explain the deception and break down the question further in my next blog.

    Hope these few paragraphs will be helpful to the CoC wannabes reading this blog.

  42. Thanks,2R&1I. I’m not a coc wannabe. Just a new hunter who, after reading the views and tips of the masters on clue-crafting, attempted some crafting on the current food court theme, just for fun. Btw, I wasn’t questioning your non-usage of language indicator, just asking as I had been debating with myself on this. Much earlier, I inquired of ckoh about clues covering only part of a signage and was confused over the differing opinions. Anyway here are 2 of my amateur efforts relevant to this query:

    1. Shuffle King, Ace and first two cards.

    2. Water and Stone don’t mix..here they do!

    Please give me your honest comments on this. Don’t worry about hurting my feelings. I really want to learn. Thx.

  43. sorry, forgot to state no. of letters. 9 for Q1 and 13 for Q2.

  44. 2R&1I, I figured out that ‘sense’ within a couple of minutes, but although I’m guessing the interpretation of that letter ‘n’ in the name, I’m not all too sure about it. Unless of course I’m wrong from the very beginning! I’d be pleased if you could explain.

    ‘Local man’… arghhhh!!! You’ve just blown away one of my questions in my question bank, 2R&1I. How true. ‘Local man’ does force hunters to consider Malays, Indians, Chinese etc instead of ‘orang’ or ‘lelaki’.

    I got hold of an interesting question from a past hunt, I believe set by one of our own elite teams here in KK. 2R&1I might be familiar with ‘Main Tembak’. Even the name of the team is deceiving! Unfortunately, I wasn’t in that hunt, as I wasn’t even introduced to the game back then. Here it is:


    By the time I got this question, I could ‘see’ the answer almost immediately, but I still think it’s a beautiful question anyway. According to the setter, only few teams got the answer. Most of them gave Jln Mat Salleh. The correct answer: AKIRA (brand name of electrical goods).

    Btw, 2R&1I, I’m afraid that JCI hunt is not likely to go ahead in August. I think they’re having problems to get enough sponsors (I wonder if it has a lot to do with this mischievious CoC?). Anyway, I might want to make up to the local hunters by giving them an official hunt instead. If not so good response, then at least I’ve done my part!

  45. Calling out Dr Clue.

    In spite of the additional clues given by 2R&1I, I’m still unable to crack your clues, Doc. For Q1, at least there’re some ideas to play with, eg love=O?. But that Q2 is complete blank for me. How it can somehow be worked out into a brand name it something I’d really like to know. Oh I am learning so much on here. I hope I’m not the only one baffled by this clue. Surely I am not that hopeless?… hehehehe.

  46. Pink, sure you don’t want to change your mind about being a CoC?

    Honestly, the first one is very good. Meets most of my criterias. If a subtle definition clue, like “Easy” was to be crafted-in, it would have been perfect. I liked the way the question was misleading readers towards playing cards.

    The second one, I am not so sure. It is logically not possible for a liquid and solid to mix, so the answer would be quite “glaring” to the readers.

    Once again, great attempt.

  47. ckoh, let me help you get over your hurdles. Same answers but put in a different way.

    Q1: He unified a supporter with an organized crime boss?

    Q2: A bank teller perhaps shouting out to one who is ahead in the queue.

  48. My fave questions are the ones that appear simple and straightforward, yet deceptive like the one I posted earlier.

    The sentence read deceptively straightforward misleading readers towards Opinions and Logics.
    The choice of words and flow of the sentence was almost perfect. The icing on the cake was the pun on the words “sense” and “point”. A rather subtle “Her” was included as a definition clue.

    So to my newbie friends, when out hunting, never ignore any words (for alternative meanings), especially the naively simple-looking words. Good CoCs regularly uses puns as deceptions. A good thesuarus in hand will do the trick!

    Good luck!

  49. ckoh, we should be popping into KK sometime in August, enroute to China. (JCI or no JCI). However, we’d love to sit-in another a-maize-ing hunt of yours. So kindly post your plan early, so we can plan our trip around your event.

  50. ckoh, and thanks Italians et al,

    Sorry to be away so long. on active duty, hehe.

    2R&1I has given extra angles to arrive at the answer.

    Q1: Make love to the Godfather. (6 letters)
    This is an example of what is called the charade clue. As you surmised, love = O
    Answer : Synonym of MAKE + O
    Godfather : definition.
    A standard crossword cryptic clue, with definition and the subsidiary indication, in this case a charade cluing style.

    Q2 is a wee bit more subtle. It is a Treasure Hunt style clue, with no definitions at all. This is fair game in a TH as the answer can be found in the hunting sector. In this blog it is a wee bit far fetched, as there are no guides as to what is being referred to.

    2R has been helpful Q2: Brand of a sporting equipment

    Q2: A bank teller perhaps shouting out to one who is ahead in the queue.

    Good luck.

  51. Dear Doc; 2R&1I, thanks for your the help. Am late for Rotarian meeting now, but can’t contain my curiosity! Will be back for more later.

    Will think more about the Q1. As for Q2, I’m lost still! Even if I know YONEX, I still don’t know how to connect to ELIAM. But maybe this is something I can ponder over lunch. Oh I am loving all these lessons!


  52. ckoh: Ans to Q2: it’s in your genes!

  53. pink: There’s nothing wrong with your gender analysis. They made good sense. Like all vague treasure hunt questions – a lot of vagueness confused you. Despite all that – you see through it and that’s what matters most.

    Yes, that’s me. Many know me by my initials – that which have been hitting the headlines of recent – about me and Proton.

  54. Dear Twin Cyclops (Two Are One-Eyed):

    Must encourage you to continue to play the critique role. It is helping everyone – I am sure the visibles here are just the tip of the iceblog.

    I am certain the other 90% are keenly scanning for tips to improve their game too – hunters and setters alike.

    You cannot lose what you teach and no one can gain all of that you know. We learn by first emptying ourselves (from “the tea cup story”).

    That’s Treasure Hunt Philosophy for everyone – part 1 of 1. Blog on!

  55. ce5nt, I won’t be going anywhere. Just got the thumbs up from ckloh to blog away.

    In fact blog away I did, looking at the number of postings I made since Friday. Must be the coffee effect, from trying to stay awake during the US Open.
    Surprised myself even.


  56. ce5nt, during lunch, I was wondering…

    Quite some time back, I thought of that possibility — I mean the gene thing. I quickly brushed that aside. I don’t know why I did that. That’s the second time I threw away a correct start to a wonderful solution prematurely. The first time was when I was given a question about the word “PETRARY”. It’s such an outrageously difficult word in one of the hunt questions that someone was kind enough to pass on to me.

    The reason I brushed that solution for Q2 was because I thought it was such a specific knowledge; and yet when I come to think of it now, it’s quite a common knowledge after all! Just now, during lunch, I was thinking along that path again. And AGAIN, I thought to myself, “Nah, it can’t be! And yet, it makes sense.” And when I see your revelation — that “it’s in your genes” — I said to myself, “By jove, indeed it is THE answer!” Awesome question, Doc! I humbly admit defeat! It would have been a very tough question to me in an actual hunt — let alone doing it ‘blindfolded’ here!

    But now I’ll have to investigate about Q1 again. Like I said earlier. All these lessons are great!

    Btw, ce5nt, interesting message to whoever grandmaster you’re trying to lure out into the open. Don’t know much about that confusing Confucius, but I share the same policy to share my knowledge for whatever it’s worth. BUT! I always have some more tricks up my sleeves — or least I come up with new ones.

  57. Hmmm… you people seem to know each other so well here. I guess I’m the only odd one out here, huh? I see the T. Cyclops refers to 2R&1I. Oh boy, the names you people go by!

  58. Doc, would you believe it, I finally figured out the solution to Q1 too! I’m not too heart-broken though. It has a lot to do with my shallow knowledge with celebrities. This is not an excuse though! It’s all in the game! What I mean by “I’m not too heart-broken” is that if it was something that I knew from the beginning, and yet I didn’t see it, then I’d kick myself in the butt.

    The funny thing was that, for a long time, I was thinking how to connect Pacino to the answer! Especially because that word ‘Pacino’ contains 6 letters too. How shameful of me. Very good question, and what a straightforward answer. Thank you for sharing your wondergul Q, Doc!

  59. Dear ckoh,
    Learn fast you have.

    Q1 as meant to illustrate the essence of a clue, the cryptic subsidiary indication, the definition and smooth surface reading. Fair, concise and, with perseverance, solvable.

    Q2 as borne out of the ce5nt(Y)connection. A Form 5 lesson in genetics, chromosomes and all. Then it all fits. It was used in theSun hunt and was answered.

    Bravo, my friend. Clap, clap, clap

  60. Dear Doc, I must thank all you grandmasters for not simply spoonfeeding me with the immediate answers, but instead gave me clues to arrive at the solutions. It’s a great learning experience.

    If I may, I like Q1 much better than Q2 on here. But in an actual hunt, I’d prefer Q2. As you said, Q2 is more suitable for actual hunt scenario where the answer is found within the sector.

    Q2 is unique because I think it is suitable for this medium where solvers are able to get the answer ‘blindfolded’. The reason I love this Q is because of the level of deception.

    When I first read the Q, I knew what it was all about because it was obvious that you’re trying to demonstrate your points. But my analysis brought me as far as LOVE=O. So since I was working on the charade approach, I was racking my brain to figure out how to arrive at a 6-letter word ending with ‘O’, and it must be connected to ‘godfather’. Almost immediately I thought of the word PACINO! And that’s where I got stuck for a long time. It fitted the 6-letter requirement; it fitted the ‘godfather’ requirement. Yet it didn’t fit ‘MAKE’! And the terrible thing about a beautiful idea is that it’s so hard to shake oneself out of it!

    So I started to put the noose around my neck instead, by looking at that word ‘MAKE’ as an anagram clue! And from there I descended further and further into the ravine. Isn’t it strange how people have the habit of doing things the difficult way unnecessarily? Hercule Poirot always said that the most obvious answer is almost always the correct answer!

    Bear in mind that all this is tough because my English is just not as good as my Malay. I’m trying to keep up though! I hope to learn more from you grandmasters… and then hopefully someday I’ll be able to outwit you people!… hehehehe.

    Raining again today, so I guess I have to do that boring bicycle ride again! Arghhh!

  61. I’m back! To all the grandmasters here, I’d like to ask for a tip on the problem with my English vocabulary. How do you deal with English words which you’re not familiar with? I’m sure many hunters face this same problem as me.

    For example, when the question gives something about ‘and ancient stone-throwing machine’, where do we start to arrive at that bombastic word ‘petrary’? When the questions gives something about ‘a piece of meat’, where do we start to look for the word ‘joint’? I’m always stuck with this particular problem. Is there a way around it? TQ.

  62. Thanks 2R&1I for your kind comments. You are now partly to blame for firing me up to churn out summore.

    Becoming a coc is a distant dream. Just want to enjoy hunting first – embarking on my 5th road hunt on the 30th. I’m fascinated by the beauty of the English Language and hold people like you, Dr Clue, Ce5nt and in high regard. Like ckoh, I’m more conversant in Malay (hence the Derina clue was cinch). Dr Clue’s Qs took a little longer but like ckoh, I thought of the character and not the actor at first.

    If I may impose upon you (and any of the other masters who are willing), here are two more of my concoctions (still on the food court theme) for your critique:

    1. Church leader renounces drunk pastor implicated in rock concert.

    2. Doctor randomly dissected and reduced odour in lower extremity.

    I endeavoured to follow the your criteria and would aprreciate your comments. If you find this too much of an imposition, just tell me to stop, ok?


  63. Aww forgot the no. of letters again! 9 for both. The solutions are easy, it’s just the crafting that I need help with.

  64. Pink, you’ve got be stumped. I’ve no clue how to solve your latest 2 concoctions. Perhaps, someone out there can drop me some subtle hints.

  65. ckoh, if indeed there is a solution to your problem we’d all be scoring perfect in every hunt. I’m afraid I can’t help you here, as I face the same predicament. Just read more during your free time I guess (ha ha).

  66. Hehehehe…I thought so. Well, it’s just that, y’know, sometimes during a hunt, when you get a question relating to phrase, or something like ‘a piece of meat’, the way I try to deal with it is by guessing! Looking at a board, and seeing a particular word, and then say “ah maybe it’s that word there! look it up in a dictionary! Who knows we can connect it to the question somehow!”. It would be nice if there is a better means of arriving at the answer. I thought there is a trick to it.

    Btw, 2R&1I, I just realised that I had a typo a few posts back. What I meant to say was that if the JCI hunt is cancelled, I might consider doing an UNOFFICIAL (as opposed to OFFICIAL) hunt. Prizes are small, mainly for the fun of it only. But to make it viable, I must be able to attract minimum 20 teams, which is only about 20% of Sutera.

    If indeed I’m going ahead with it, provided I can attract 20 teams, and if you’re still keen, I’ll try to invite Main Tembak to hunt too. That should be fun, as they would be able to keep you on your toes! By the way, I consider them the best here in KK. When I first started, one of their team members was kind enough to help me out. I’ll keep you informed.

  67. 2Rs&1I,

    Goodness, that bad ah? Thought they are simple constructions with fairly obvious answers, definitely not meant to stump anyone, least of all a master craftsman like yourself. Something must not be right with my use of words. The first is a popular dish available at most food courts and the second, a signage. Shall I provide the answers so you know what I’m trying to achieve?

    Btw, I’ve been pondering over your suggestion of a subtle definition clue, like “easy” being incorporated into my earlier clue. Could you please tell me how to do it? I know definition clues are necessary in cryptic crosswords (I love the Sunday Star ones) but I omitted them as the theme is food. Still, i can’t see the connection between ‘easy’ and the answer. Please help. TY.

    Would love to hear comments from the other masters too, if you can spare time away from your more elite discussions. TY

  68. pink, you may find this surprising, but anything can be easy and clear IF YOU KNOW THE ANSWER.

    Oh and by the way, welcome back to our time zone!

  69. oooh, 2Rs&1i, I see the ‘easy’ connection now. Goodness I’m sooo slow! However, isn’t ‘easy’ more approriate for the 2nd clue rather than the 1st?

    Short of gushing like a schoolgirl, I think you are a grandmaster!

  70. Hi ckoh, yes, I’m back in the normal time zone.
    Now, why should I find it surprising that anything can be easy and clear if you kbow the answer? :)) Tho this is not always true, is it? Anyway, I offered to provide the answers becoz I probably didn’t manage to get the message thru with my construction and word usage since they are meant to be straightforward clues an not meant to stump anyone. I could have used synonyms to make things more difficult but my intention was to have my style critiqued and tightened.

    Your comments would be much appreciated too as I’m fascinated with clue-crafting after reading your discussions in this blog and would like to hone my skills. In case you find this amusing (why do I always get the impression that you are laughing at me??), I have no ambitions of becoming a coc, at least not for a long time yet. It’s just a fun thing with me as a newbie hunter.

  71. pink, glad you got my point.

    In my opinion, Definition clues can be well crafted to add to the deception rather than making it easier. While on the other hand, it helps the reader to narrow down the possibilities if they are able to identify the definition clue (to make it fair and solvable).

    Think I solved your Q4. But I am still stumped by Q3.

    If I had intepreted Q4 the way you intended to correctly, I think it doesn’t pass my criterias (3) and (4). There are extra words (not used) in the sentence, and the anagram indicator is in the wrong place. This question has room for improvement.

  72. pink : agree with 2R1I on Q4.

    BM > EL:
    your command of BM is definitely stronger than your EL. I did not know the word layu – needed a dict to help me. That’s how far behind I am on the BM vocab-ruler. I did like your dissecting concept though – its literal meaning was a fresh idea.

    Like many of us, we pay first before we get to the make it to the top … and your enthusiasm,at this rate, will propel you there earlier than you know it.

    When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

  73. Hi pink, in your prior post, you said your questions “… are simple constructions with fairly obvious answers, definitely not meant to stump anyone…”. So I said to you that anything can be easy and clear if you knew the answer.

    No, I don’t laugh at you… ummm, usually I only laugh when there is something that I find amusing.

    And finally, although I was hoping to try your questions later, my heart sank when 2R&1I declared that you’ve got him stumped! If the grandmaster is unable to find the solutions, I’ll be damned if I can get anywhere close to it! I’ll try it anyway, but later. Just finishing off now, and going home!

  74. Wow, ce5nt, you didn’t know ‘layu’? Oh how nice if the hunt questions are mostly in Malay… hehehehe. Anyway, ce5nt, I’m finalising something especially for you. I think we’re all coming up with a big debate soon!

  75. Thx again, 2Rs&1I.

    Like I said, something in the construction must be amiss if you are stumped.

    The 2 main indicators are disguised as verbs. The ‘extra’ indicator is clumsy, but I thought it was needed to indicate disorder. Does dissected already cover this? Apart from this, no anagram is involved, so I can’t grasp your comment about the anagram-indicator-in-the-wrong-place bit. Like I mentioned before, I’m sloooow. Please enlighten me…after the others have given the Q’s a look?

    ALL my efforts have room for improvement and you have helped lots. TY


    So you find me asmusing, huh? For that I hope you get stumped :)) 2Rs&1I was ‘stumped’ only becoz my construction was not very ok, as I suspected, and not becoz my Q’s were too difficult. Actually, I could have made them more challenging by using synonyms rather than the actual words involved but I need to hone my crafting skills first. Y’know, learn to walk before I run.

  76. Hey, 2R&1I, back to your favourite Q, I just want to make sure that I got the correct analysis. Is it SENSE = DERIA, and POINT = N? Or is it something else? Thx.

  77. ckoh: all q’s in B.M? — then you will see me berlayu from the Treasure Hunting fraternity!

  78. Ah, ckoh, so you finally saw sense, deria I mean. Correct me if I err, 2R&1I, points usually mean points of the compass, right?

    ce5nt, you agree with 2Rs&1I about my misplaced anagram indicator Q4? Strange. There is no anagram involved. Here’s the same signage worded differently (I was not very happy with this one):

    Q4b: Our first dairy cow grazes in part of the yard.

  79. Excuse me, pink, ‘finally saw sense’? I saw it long ago my friend! Scroll up to my post dated: June 18, 2007 at 7:19am.

    It was just a new idea to me about that letter ‘n’. I wanted 2R&1I to confirm it, but he left it unexplained for too long. So I asked again.

  80. Oh boy…. ce5nt, I think you really need to do something about your BM! If ever you’re hunting in my hunts in the future, let me know, so that I can add more Malay Qs… hehehehe.

    By the way, ckloh, pls excuse me, let me give ce5nt the Q. See how he’s gonna work on the kamus! Even if he finally gets the answer, I’d be happy that he’s spent so much efforts on it!

    Sepuluh ribu? Mana, Panglima, tak ada! (5 letters)

    Still on the food court. Strange question which appears like what a soldier would say to his superior when told that 10,000 enemy soldiers are attacking! But of course this has nothing to do with war. OK now you have ummm…. 5 minutes to solve… hehehehe.

  81. pink : Since I got it wrong. Might as well share with you what was going on in the crevices of my fast “berlayu” grey matter.

    The Wrong Answer : BAYAR DULU

    Doctor = DR
    Randomly = anagram
    Therefore = RD

    Dissected = separated

    odour = BAU

    LAYU = faded thus “reduced”

    Lower Extremity (what I concluded were unused words) – although I did suspect that it should not be sensible to include such complex words and not use them. But that’s what happens when you do not “see” other options. You “confidently” tembak.

    Notice how R and D + LAYU separate (dissected & reduced) the ODOUR (BAU)?

    And dare I try Q4(b)?

  82. Wow, your analytical skill is awesome, ce5nt, especially since you’re unfamiliar with Malay! Although I am still laughing out loud on ‘berlayu’ grey matter, I really admire your skill. I salute you!

  83. And, pink, is that your idea of a straightforward question?

  84. Btw, a quick BM lesson for this evening, ce5nt.

    When you use the word ‘layu’ as an adjective, there is no need to add imbuhan ‘ber’, i.e. “… then you will see me ‘layu’ from the Treasure Hunt fraternity”.

    Other possible words might be ‘pudar’ or ‘malap’, although these words are usually used for colours and illuminations respectively.

  85. ckoh: And why wouldn’t the answer be LAKSA?

  86. ckoh : appreciate your coaching on my BM … and I am now 3 words better off than moments ago, thanks to a big-hearted soul across the SCS. And by such lucky stroke – I got layu connected to a colour matter correctly! And luck is what I depend on when I struggle on the hunting grounds!

  87. Yes, master, indeed it is a double-definition clue! Doc was correct after all. Awesome! I pay tribute to you, grandmaster! See? I’m not a sore loser. If I lose I admit defeat…. ^&&^#%^*&!!.. hehehehehe

  88. ckoh : you’re a great Cikgu yourself! You find ways to lift fallen/falling compatriots! The world needs a champion like you.

  89. Ummm… yeah… not quite a champion yet… but hopefully someday. Oops! my cue… need to bring JJ to bed. Mommy won’t be back till Saturday afternoon. And just now I almost fainted, JJ asked me where babies come from! Nite folks!

  90. Goodness, ce5nt. I did try to look at my Q from another angle after you and 2R&1I agreed about the misplaced anagram indicator but I would’nt have seen what you saw in a million years. No wonder the indicator thingy arose. It would be interesting to see what 2R&1I saw 🙂 My Q is much simpler than that but full marks for the analysis, ce5nt, enjoyed it.

    And no, ckoh,THAT is not my idea of a straightforward Q. Mine definitely is. This proves my point that sometimes a newbie with an simple mind can see what a master who uses a microscope (telescope?)and sees more than is needed.

    If you look at Q4 again without the binoculars, you find that it’s really a simple Q after all. Like I said, my objective here is to get critique on my crafting. I really didnt expect the Qs themselves to be the problem. What a bonus!!

    Back to Q4, the same answer lies in Q4b. Have fun!

    Your malay Q is not fair to those not very conversant with the language but is very obvious to those who are. Hint to the former: No prob if you don’t understand what the soldier is saying.

  91. Hehehe…that’s easy! So fast fell asleep, can escape back here!

    Ummm… that’s the debate I was expecting from ce5nt, pink. I expected him to say the question was unfair to him. But as you can see, no such complaint. Would you care to tell me why the Q was unfair?

  92. ckloh… no need to!… as you can see, grandmaster ce5nt has solved it!

  93. pink: I get it. it was the theme itself. I will let 2R1I to explain … he is the best at that.

  94. Hey ce5nt, it seems that pink is of the opinion that my Malay Q is unfair for people who’re not conversant in Malay. And yet you got the answer almost at once! Is my standard in setting Q so lousy? I’m beginning to worry about playing the role of CoC! Did I give too many clues? Where did I got wrong?

  95. I said it was unfair to those not conversant with Malay, as Panglima is not commonly used, what more it’s synonym. But then you are the expert and it’s only my opinion. As I’m Malay-educated, I saw Laksamana immediately. Nevertheless, it was a good clue.

    I’m still grinning about ce5nt’s Bayar Dulu solution. The workings were, like you said, awesome. Imagine working out a credible solution when he thought the indicator was in the wrong place and that there were excess words. I hope my crafting will get a better review when the correct answer is arrived at. Give it a go, ckoh, it’s really straightforward.

  96. Bingo! That’s the argument I expected from ce5nt, pink! But I would have had a very strong defense. Panglima is not THAT obvious, unless of course if you already know the answer.

    But that is not my point, pink. What’s my defense?

  97. ckoh, ce5nt, 2R&1I :

    My head’s spinning with words and clues. As no-one has come up with the correct answer for Q4, it may be due to faulty crafting. I’ve thought of another clue for the same signage which may prove clearer than the first 2:

    Q4c You serve one and hold the other. (9)

  98. ckoh:

    I did not know that LAKSA also meant 10,000. I had to look that up. But I only looked just to confirm it because the other part was obvious to me. I came from the era of having LAKSAMANA’s in my History lessons. So no problems there.

    And more significantly, LAKSA+MANA have been used in treasure hunts.

    It is. It’s researchable at the very least. Maybe should not use me as a measure of the standard of BM amongst treasure hunters – I am unpredictable.

  99. pink: Sure it was not FOODCOURT? Then I am really, really stumped.

  100. It sure is, ce5nt :)) Why are you stumped? Does this not fulfill all 3 clues? Would appreciate your comments on all. I had to think of alternatives because I wasn’t happy with the 1st one.

    Thanks and please give Q3 another look.

  101. oh sorry, ce5nt, didn’t see your earlier post.

  102. hi pink,
    have been following this blog and i must say that many of the Q posted have great ideas. My team mates and I have been discussing the Q(s) posted by you and the others and one of my team mate explaination for your Q4 is as follows:

    Doctor randomly dissected = doc
    Reduced odour = oour
    In lower extermity = foot or ft
    doc+oour+ft = foodcourt (9 letters)

    However, we find difficulty in understanding why doctor randomly dissected and does your reduced odour means reduce (d) from odour? If yes, then we think the construction needs a little twitching. However, we could be wrong and a better explanation could be given by you.

  103. Good morning, folks!… Well, not exactly good morning for me. I wish I can have some more sleep. Waking JJ up soon to prepare her for school.

    Indeed garam helps, ce5nt. That word Panglima has a few possibilities. But since this was supposed to be a ‘normal’ clue, I decided to throw in the MANA to make the task easier. Little did I know that you’ve had LAKSA+MANA before! That would have been my primary defense. I think I’ve given a fair chance to solvers — even to those not very good in BM — by giving that MANA.

    ckloh wondered the purpose of that 10,000. That’s intended to be my second line of defense. Solvers are allowed to confirm their solution by checking on that word LAKSA. Otherwise, if that 10,000 meant nothing, then it is obviously a violation of the general rule, i.e. useless words in the clue.

  104. Ad, if that’s the explanation to pink’s Q4, then I’d say the Q badly needs a major overhaul. It would’ve failed the ‘fairness’ requirement. Let’s see the possibilities:

    Doctor randomly dissected = DOC. Why not DO, TOR, OR, DOCT, CTOR…

    Reduced odour = OOUR. Why not OUR, OR, UR, OO, OOR…

    lower extremity = foot or ft. I’m fine with this one.

    doc + oour + ft = FOODCOURT. Where’s the anagram clue? Did pink say no anagram for this Q?

    And by the way, Ad, amazing dedication to the game. 3.26 am, and you’re still working on the question!

  105. RE: oh sorry, ce5nt, didn’t see your earlier post.
    by pink June 20th, 2007 at 12:50 am

    It’s okay, pink. Such are the hazards of blogging – there’s so much to read/write and are mostly done at Autobahn speeds. We often turn-back and read them again later/after posting and then make discoveries like this.

    When a COC intentionally mislead the field towards a sign as the answer from the actual target, it is called a “RED herring”.

    In this case (or my case), I misled myself into believing the “sign” is the correct one and with a near-plausible thesis to go along with it too.

    I think there’s no similar term in the same vein to describe this phenomenon in treasure hunting – the closest being “self-prophecy” or “self-disillusionment”. We sometimes say “you are stretching it too far” “or forcing the issue” in the car.

    Here (as in Malaysia), I take this opportunity to suggest that it be called a “pink herring” or simply a “pinkie”.

    And one can have a hand-signal to go with you too – just wriggle the pinkie on either hand (or maybe the left if the “victim” is a “Y” and the right one if the “victim” is an “X”)? – hmmm … maybe just drop the hand-signal – in some countries – that’s not culturally polite – but this is Malaysia!

  106. mornin’ ce5nt. I see you’re up early today with an original idea my friend… “pink herring”… and the hand-signal to go with it.

  107. OK, a good day to start on a new topic.

    CoCs, have you ever been asked about the process of setting a clue? I don’t mean the ‘eye-testers’ type. Well, several people have asked me in the past. Some are regular hunters. They asked, “Do you suddenly ‘see’ the clue in your mind?”; “Where do you start?”; “What are the steps leading to the final products?”. Well, today let me share with you some of what I’ve gone through. And maybe other CoCs would also!

    In the style of ce5nt…

    THE BASIC REQUIREMENTS (See, I’m learning):
    Minimal language proficiency; artistic ability; imaginative mind; reasonable knowledge; knowledge of basic clues: anagrams, containers etc.; flair for riddles/puzzles in general. There are probably other significant requirements.

    We’ve discussed some of this already — for example, I give a clue relating to ONE word from a MORE-THAN-ONE-WORD signage. Others give practically unheard of words not even found in the dictionary; only on google (petrary).

    “Jln Lapan Belas”

    Hey, that’s a good one! 18…hmm… that’s 50% more than a dozen. Nah… everyone knows a dozen! “Just finished SPM”? Maybe… maybe not. 2 more to ‘score’? Yeah… that’s nice. But that’s been used I think. How about a gross. That’s 12 dozen. Yup, it’s good.


    Nah… that’s not even a clue!


    Hmmm… still too obvious, no deception at all.


    Ah… that’s a bit better. But it doesn’t mislead the solver.


    Yes, that’s much better. But what if the hunters give the ’18’ as in the number of a shop? Hmm… must tie in that ‘Jln’ to make it an exclusive fit.


    Nah.. too common. OK, do it this way then:


    Signage is on busy highway. Nothing is perfect, folks!

  108. Admins, I’m getting the answers already by seeing the comments.
    Is there anyway to get them into a discussion entry and make questions for us? Hehe 🙂

  109. ckoh: interesting insight of a COC mind indeed.

    Here is what possibly happened (I imagine) in the typical car: where the “actor” is not identified – it can be anyone in the car:

    FOLLOW THIS WAY : “must be road-sign”.

    GET THE ANSWER : “let’s see what the sign says”

    EIGHT OF WHICH : “some kind of number or measure that must be multiplied by 8” or “the first 8 letters of the sentence – WHICHRES?” Look for lapan or eight also.

    RESULTS IN : that’s just saying you will get, maybe, anagram of WHICHRES?

    A GROSS OUTCOME : “144”. Divided by 8 = 18.
    Look for 18 or Lapan-belas. or look for 18 / 8 or 8 / 18?

    Why 18/8 or 8/18?

    Maybe someone added a backstroke to it to turn it into 18X8 or 8X18.

    I see a road with a number … Jalan Lapan something … ! Go back! Go back! We past it!

    (Driver) Cannot-lah! Heavy traffic! You get down and take a look-lah – quick-quick – no cars now!

    (3rd Member)How to get down here?! Longkang and wet mud! Raining some more.

    Ok! Ok! I try to reverse.

    (Writer) Slowly please,I throw up when you do that!

    There you are : Jalan Lapan Belas.

    Why 18-ah?

    I told you already – 18 times 8 is 144, a gross.

    (4th Member)Yes, yes, this’s the one. let’s go.

    (Writer) Wait, wait – I have not written it down yet.
    Any poskod? Was that Jalan or Jln? Got stops or not?One word or two words? Got hyphen or not?
    Read to me! I cannot see.

    (Driver) Quick-lah! People are horning us already!

    (Writer)Wait-lah! – no point getting the answer and not writing it correctly!

    (4th member)Never mind – I got it, let’s go!

    END OF TYPICAL ADVENTURE … and that is only question 1 of 40!

    DISCLAIMER : Any resemblance to any person living or otherwise is purely coincidental.

  110. Wow, I only left the room for half a day, then return and be overwhelmed with 35 additional posts. I definitely won’t be able to catch up!

    By the way, ckoh and ce5nt should really be exchanging cellphone numbers (LOL).

    Now where do I start?

    Ok, let’s start with ckoh.
    I am surprised you had troubles with “point”. It is regularly used here to identify one of the points of a compass.
    eg. Points making the headlines (4 letters).

    Now on to pink. Let’s review all 3 versions of signage you put forth.
    a) Doctor randomly dissected and reduced odour in lower extremity.
    I think pink had meant it to be cracked as foo+doc+our+t ie. part of doctor and part of odour in foot. My workings were doctor+fou (part of foul smell) which anagrammed to the same answer. My comments is that this tyoe of construction can be a potential headache for you as readers have the ability to come out with many interpretations as ckoh had pointed out. Never use container indicators more than once in a question as it can lead to multiple possible answers.

    b)Our first dairy cow grazes in part of the yard.
    This is an improvement over the first Q4 try. I liked the smooth flow of the sentence. However if you had intended it to be cracked as foo+(our+dc)+t, I have a few grievances to make. Firstly cryptically I can’t accept “foot” as part of “yard” although I know 3 feet makes a yard. Next I can’t accept “grazes” as an anagram indicator but I could be wrong here if you can come out with a better synonym for the same word. Wrong choice of words here I guess.

    c)You serve one and hold the other.
    You saved the best one for last. Short, sweet and straight to the point with no excess words.

  111. ce5nt, yes, that is one possible scenario during a hunt. It is strange that sometimes when we are too experienced in this thing, we then to view every single word suspiciously!

    I think in one of posts here, I mentioned that I see nothing wrong if a word is taken in its literal meaning eventhough there are other indirect meanings attached to it in treasure hunts. Why can’t ‘getting the answer’ means just that — GETTING THE ANSWER? I also see no reason why EIGHT OF WHICH can’t mean exactly that, i.e. 8 (times) of the answer is one gross? And why can’t that RESULTS IN means exactly that, in its ordinary literal meaning? You can, of course look at those words in the ‘cryptic’ way, but you do that at your own peril!

    OK let us start over. You’ve made up your mind that FOLLOW THIS WAY refers to a ‘Jln’ somehow. Fine, we’ll leave it at that.

    TO GET THE ANSWER which is at the moment still unknown to us. But let’s assume that the answer is ‘A’ fo the moment. We’ll try to determine what’s ‘A’ later. OK, what else do we have?

    EIGHT OF WHICH. Now looking at the flow of the sentence, EIGHT OF WHICH must be referring to the answer, which is ‘A’. Meaning, Eight of ‘A’ results in GROSS outcome. Or more plainly, and in mathematical terms, 8A = 144.

    Now doing a bit of algebra calculations:

    A = 144/8

    A = 18

    I know it sounds like such long journey to reach the solution. Tell me, 2R&1I, how long did it take your team to get it? Did it take you forever?

  112. ckoh, that question of yours was straight forward.

    However to be honest with you, we needed to double back once to find the answer. Not because the answer was small or obscure, but because we were looking for Jalan 5/2 or Jalan 20/8 having fooled ourselves for a few minutes that gross = score (ha ha).

    Now, another layer for your armour – treating “/” as a division sign. Wonder whether treasure hunters have a shorter life than the rest of the population, from our tendency to over analyse something so straightforward!

  113. 2R&1I, now you see what I mean when I said I am new at this thing! Of the 6 hunts I have participated before, none was about POINT = N (or any other compass points). This is only the second time I see it being used. The first time I saw it was in past question that I got hold of. And working my way backwards (the answer was available), I managed to arrive at a compass point. But I had no one to confirm it!

    And now I see it again here — in your Q. The moment I saw DERIA = SENSE, the N MUST refer to POINT. I would have been happy with that. But if you scroll up to your post: 18th June, 2007 at 11:20am, you added “A rather subtle “Her” was included as a definition clue.” That made me think again, am I wrong about POINT = N? Is there another explanation connected to “HER”? That’s why I wanted your confirmation.

    The other interesting thing, which is also new to me from a past question, is the name ANNE. In fact, I found it in 2 different questions. ‘ANNE’ also refers to the letter ‘N’. I find that interesting that no ‘sounds like’ clue was required in the questions. Is this also common there?

    Finally, I’ll try to get ce5nt’s phone numbers sooner or later, and then probably I’ll harrass him each day to give me a tuition on this game! But please don’t blow me up into pieces, ce5nt!

  114. Ah, as long as you can acknowledge that my question was straightforward, I am satisfied.

    If hunters are to fool themselves with gross=score, that is not my problem… hehehehe. In fact, please continue fooling yourselves!

  115. Ahem!… ummm… ckloh, this is the 115th post here. That’s already surpassed the number of posts for last week. And today is only Wednesday!

    Your blog is so laku with so many grandmasters discussing important treasure hunt matters here. We’re all learning so much. I must congratulate you again on a successful medium for such discussions. Of course I am also glad that I’m still sane…. unlike someone who’s grey matter is fast layu-ing.

    Anyway, this page is increasingly slow to load. I wonder if there is anything you can do about it? TQ.

  116. ckoh: My turn to reciprocate your kindness.

    Have you tried a treasure hunt style question with a sequence of numbers as the answer? Try this …

    The first and the last singles host two sets of orderly podium finishers, with a heavenly member and its immediate older neighbour bunking in between them.

    Give me an SMS to “celebrate” the crack! (Or surprise 1 or more persons somewhere in the world!)

  117. ckoh, noted the performance issue, don’t think we can do anything about it. But wlll check with Joshua first.

    Will get back to you.

  118. Doctor randomly dissected and reduced odour in lower extremity.

    Gosh! Didn’t expect such interesting responses to my simple request for feedback on my straightforward Q4:

    1. ce3nt:
    Believing that I had used excess words “lower extremity” and misplaced my anagram indicator managed a beautifully credible analysis and came out with BAYAR DULU. He later gave the correct answer, sadly without comment on my construction.

    2. Ad:
    Doctor randomly dissected = doc
    Reduced odour = oour
    In lower extermity = foot or ft
    doc+oour+ft = foodcourt

    3. ckoh:
    Ad, if that’s the explanation to pink’s Q4, then I’d say the Q badly needs a major overhaul. It would’ve failed the ‘fairness’ requirement. Let’s see the possibilities:

    Doctor randomly dissected = DOC. Why not DO, TOR, OR, DOCT, CTOR…

    Reduced odour = OOUR. Why not OUR, OR, UR, OO, OOR…

    lower extremity = foot or ft. I’m fine with this one.

    doc + oour + ft = FOODCOURT. Where’s the anagram clue? Did pink say no anagram for this Q?

    Finally, 2R&1R:

    a) I think pink had meant it to be cracked as foo+doc+our+t ie. part of doctor and part of odour in foot. My workings were doctor+fou (part of foul smell) which anagrammed to the same answer. My comments is that this tyoe of construction can be a potential headache for you as readers have the ability to come out with many interpretations as ckoh had pointed out. Never use container indicators more than once in a question as it can lead to multiple possible answers.
    Note: I did say I wasn’t happy with the grazing cow one and absolutely agree with your feedback. Thx.

    Here’s my simple explanation:

    Doctor dissected = DOC randomly = DCO
    Reduced odoUR = UR
    Lower extremity = FOOT
    in = container indicator

    Hence: FOO dco ur T

    I really appreciate your feedback and hope you will continue to help me hone my future offerings. In the meantime, please comment on my
    Q3: Church leader renounces drunk pastor implicated in rock concert.
    TY all!

  119. Wow, what a clue, ce5nt! Even Da Vinci himself must’ve moved in his grave due to such a bombstic clue!

    A 26-word clue in a single sentence with ONE comma and ONE full stop at the end. Just reading the entire sentence is a marathon! It’s like reading one of my wife’s legal documents — you know, the type that’s devoid of any punctuations? I haven’t the slightest idea where to start!… I hope I won’t ‘layu’ my grey matter. Will try to work on it later. Very kind of you, thank you!

  120. pink: try publishing Q3(b) and even Q3(c) by 9:00 pm if still unsolved!

    At least will help to save some lighting cost and for those not on unlimited streamyx – internet cost!
    (Ha, ha!).

  121. Still pondering on your clue, ce5nt (don’t worry, I’m on streamyx). But later.

    pink, never mind Q3 for the moment. Perhaps you still need some more work on Q4!

    OK, I’m REALLY outta here!

  122. Why Q3(b) and (c), ce5nt? It’s even simpler than Q4, except if it’s the question of my faulty construction again. No, I’m going to be brave and try to climb a mountain without ropes by and attempt YOUR Q. Wish me luck!

  123. Perhaps, ckoh. That’s why I’m here – to get help with my crafting with the help of the masters. I’m going on with Q3 because Q4 has been analysed by the others. Since you are more experienced and a coc, perhaps you can help me too and show me how I can overhaul it.

  124. ce5nt, seems I got the heavenly member wrong 😦

  125. ckoh + pink: If you got it right, you should receive a clear DA VINCI message back from me. (How come treasure hunts are not SMS interactive yet?)

  126. pink:

    By 7pm tomorrow, ckloh will release the answer to Q3. And all will be distracted by that and your Q3 will very quickly layu into oblivion.

    The silence must be some indication of a “cry/shout” for more hints or some discussion on the idea behind Q3. I would prefer you do not reveal the answer – we still want to have a crack at it.

    Popular dish found in most foodcourts (not all).
    Very easy.
    Easier than Q4.

    See what you can add on.

  127. Hehehehe… Oh you’re killing me, ce5nt! Very helpful hints so far. And I can see you’re getting the hang of that word ‘LAYU’ too.

    And yes, by 7pm tomorrow, ckloh will reveal the answer to riddle 3 — if there’s anything left to reveal — and then, Q3 will ‘LAYU’ into oblivion (I see you’ve correctly dropped the ‘ber’ too!).

    There you go, ckloh, we all learn something here!

    OK, let me try to figure out DA VINCI thing of yours… I’ll leave you grandmasters to do Q3, cos I’m lost!… Pray continue, ce5nt.

  128. pink, through wild imagination, a chanced upon “Roast Pork” as a possible answer to Q3. Did I stab it correctly? Care to explain?

  129. Again, in the style of grandmaster ce5nt…

    Surely this is not tough to crack? But what could it be? Hmmm… some ideas brewing… fast getting LAYU though. Ahh….that must be it.

    Imagine if you’re a lady, coming home from work — alone. Suddenly a signal on your cellphone indicating an incoming SMS. Checking it out, it says “CELEBRATE!”. Spooky, huh?

    After gathering enough courage, you call back the originating number, only to get an apology from someone for “accidentally keying in the wrong phone number of a friend”.

    This reminds me of the time many years ago when I was trying to get ‘her’ phone number, but was so pathetically chicken to ask for it directly. Little did I know that she was waiting for me to ask.

    4 years after going steady with her; and then another 15 years after saying ‘I do’, I still can’t remember her phone number. Luckily we now have memory cards in cellphones.

  130. And for the rest of us:
    Official Results of Da Vinci “podium finishers” :

    1)xxxxxx0586 at 19:15
    2)xxxxxx2273 at 19:51
    3)xxxxxx3111 at 20:28

    You know who you are! Congratulations!

  131. 2R1I: thought of the roast too – drunk pastor –

    – and had ROAST CHOP in my vegetarian mind. And then I had BAKED FISH (not good for a vegetarian) – saw a BASH (rock concert?)… can’t fit/explain the rest though. Can you? Can anyone?

  132. Just back from lepak-ing, after sending sms greetings to a total stranger, just because I took Venus out of the heaVens, paired her with her older neighbor and let them sleep between the champions (in the wrong position?). I did receive a return call and an invitation to meet up – alas, not from the grandmaster himsef. ce5nt, I’m sure that makes you glad.

    You stabbed right, 2R&1I! Roast pork it is. However methinks the construction is faulty because again, I meant the solution to be clearcut,

    Church leader = C
    renounces = severs connections with = -C
    drunk pastor = ASTPOR
    in = container indicator
    concert = combination, arrangement, partly used to help make sense.

    Hence: RO(C) ASTPOR K

    Frankly, I can see now that the construction needs ‘major overhaul’ as ckoh put it.
    Drunk pastor renounces church leader in rock concert would be better? The church leader would then be nearer rock.

    Over to you 2R&1I. Btw, was my clarification on Q4 ok? Was ‘randomly’ superfluous?

    Been meaning to ask – can a question mark take the place of ‘sounds like?’ as in “Sounds like payment for respiratory infection after many die in agony” and “Payment for respiratory infection after many die in agony?” Please advise. If you like, you can try to solve this (still on food court theme) after giving due attention to ckloh’s Q3 solution and solving his Q4.

    ce5nt, luv your wit :))). Hard to believe you are not of the female species.

  133. Good morning, ce5nt. Ahh… podium finishers, huh? At least I got it on my second try — still amongst those 3. But just out of curiosity, how many eventually got it right, ce5nt?

    Your podium finishers also proved to me what you said earlier was correct — that 90% are watching in silence. Indeed there are elites/celebreties following this blog intently in silence.

  134. 134 comments in a single thread.
    Hmm, DaVinci huh? I’ll give it a try

  135. This thing is seriously flooded, almost like KL few days back. I’ll be closing the comment section for this entry at around 6pm and open up a new one.

    Happy posting~!!

    Oh by the way, ce5nt… care to explain Da Vinci in future comments? 🙂

  136. [quote from ckoh] that 90% are watching in silence. Indeed there are elites/celebreties following this blog intently in silence. [/quote]

    That’ll be a rough figure 🙂
    The usual commenters here takes up about 10 to 20 percent of the blog visits.

    Btw, anyone going to the Pendrive hunt? Seems interesting since you require a laptop and a digital camera for the hunt…

  137. pink,

    I’ve been refraining from commenting on your Q4 because I felt I wasn’t entitled to. I spent very little time and efforts to try to crack it, you see. Besides, there are several grandmasters in our midst. So I’m not so sure of my qualification. But if you insist for a comment:

    “Here’s my simple explanation:

    Doctor dissected = DOC randomly = DCO
    Reduced odoUR = UR
    Lower extremity = FOOT
    in = container indicator

    Hence: FOO dco ur T”

    — pink

    Your so-called ‘simple’ explanation is not simple at all — truly it is deplorable, to say the least! You would have seen my brutal criticism on ‘Killer Riddle’, so this may seem like a repetition somehow. This question is only solvable if you already know (or at least you’ve more or less been told) the answer, and the task is just to figure out HOW. Let me explain why.

    There is nothing wrong to allow several possibilities in the solutions. In fact, I think that is expected. But let’s deal with your ‘reduced odour’. First, I think that word ‘reduced’ leaps to the eye immediately. It tells the solver that something needs to be, well, reduced.

    If, for example, that something was ‘FUR’, then one can work on, say, FU or UR maybe. But no, here we have ODOUR. That leaves the solver with so many possibilities, e.g. OD, ODO, ODOU, DO, DOU, DOUR, OUR, UR,…. even O, D, U, R (still obeying ‘reduced’). If you think that is ‘simple’, think again.

    Of course it is still possible to get your ‘simple’ UR from ODOUR, but you need to know FOOD COURT first, and then work your way backwards from there.

    Then your ‘Doctor randomly dissected’ is also a big question mark. Ask yourself, if you didn’t know FOOD COURT, how would you attempt to decipher these 3 words? Would you rearrange DOCTOR first, and then ‘dissect’ it? Or would you do it the other way round? And of course my objection to ‘dissected’ is the same as for ‘reduced’, i.e. DO, DOC, DOCT, TOR, OR, etc.

    So the lesson that we can draw from this is quite obvious. If the many brilliant grandmasters here can’t crack the clue, there can be two broad reasons. Reason 1: That clue is exceptionally brilliant. Reason 2: That clue is exceptionally lousy. I leave it to you to pick your choice.

  138. ckoh, your comments here never cease to astound me.

  139. Yes, claire, they are sharp and brutal, I know. Probably in the minds of many observers here, but y’know, we don’t want to hurt each other…

    Life is strange… truth hurts sometimes. My comments are meant to be constructive even if they don’t appear like that.

    But OK… I’ll try harder to be like what we are supposed to be like… sopan santun dan berbudi bahasa I guess.

  140. pink, your explanation confirmed what I had wildly imagined, but I had deep down hoped you had a much better & tighter explanation.

    Unfortunately your whole Q3 attempt is misleading (for the wrong reasons) and wrong. Wrong choice of verbs and fodder which is out of place makes the question practically unsolvable.

    Church leader renounces drunk pastor:
    This part of your sentence is cryptically read to mean, the letters “p-a-s-t-o-r” needs to be removed from a synonym of church leader (since clearly there is no pastor amongst these 2 words). That is why it was misleading.

    … implicated in rock concert.
    “c” and “rock” are miles apart, causing more confusion which is again wrong. And finally “concert” was a glaringly redundant word, neither was it used as a definition clue nor was it used to support the cryptic clue.

    Sorry pink, in my book this question does not score a lot of points, if any at all.

  141. Before finding my way here, I was introduced to Michael Pang’s blog by a friend. There, I was found an interesting article on Volvo Online hunt. Unfortunately, I decided that I didn’t have so much dedication to go for that marathon hunt for a whole month. Neither did I think I had it in me to outwit all the masters.

    Later on, my decision was justified, considering that those who participated spent sleepless nights cracking the clues! But the end was an anti-climax in my opinion. I was surprised to find that none of the grandmasters that I know made it to the final, and I wondered why.

    Then I was told by a friend of the condition of submission for that final answer. Each participant was allowed only ONE try. If you submitted the wrong answer, that’s the end of it! That made solvers pause a little longer to reconsider — just to make sure — their answers. The hunt suddenly became an online race.

    Those who had the brilliant minds to foresee that ‘condition’ at the final hurdle would have been wise enough to sign up under different IDs from the very beginning of the hunt, hence would have had several tries available to them. Others who were not so brilliant would have had to be contented with ONE single try only. The net result was that, they had to check and check their answers again and again, resulting in the loss of precious time, and therefore the chance for cash and a new Volvo.

    That’s why, ckloh, I asked (many posts ago) how many tries each of us have for your riddles here. Instead of saying (5 letters or less), I think it is OK to just say (5 letters). Then allow only one try each, so they won’t flood your mailbox with blind tembaks! They really need to think about their answers carefully. Once wrong, they’re out!

  142. Hi all…I finally coaxed myself to step out from my shell…to craft this one riddle, also on food:

    A well suited position for Calvin Klein is the result.

    So please…shoot it down, curse and swear, anything. If it’s that bad, at least I could say, “My first attempt gave people nightmares”. Haha…

  143. ckoh, understand your sentiment.

    This is my view. If I want to craft a clue for XO, and lets say XO is common beverage in food court, doesn’t it too glaring for the solvers to get the answer right?

    The themes is food court this month, and same for next month. But most probably it will be other themes for other months, where there are quite alot of possible answers for 2 or 3 letters word.

    But hope to hear more opinions, which one we prefer (3 letters) or (5 letters or below)? We can fit in accordingly.

  144. ckloh : my 5-cent worth on your latest response.

    Just avoid the less than 5-letter targets completely – no fun setting questions for something like that anyway. e.g NASI, ICE, HOT, COLD : boring aren’t they?

    I would encourage you to switch themes next month.
    Notwithstanding that I am a vegetarian, too much food is just not good for anyone.

  145. josh:

    I would normally oblige to requests for explanations. But for this Da Vinci case – it is my personal phone number … I would not like to receive SMS spams, would I?

    Having said that, it would be a pleasure to meet anyone out there who is enthusiastic enough to crack the code and want to know each other better! Folks of the same feathers are always welcomed!

    Contact ckoh and pink: they can help explain privately to you. Yes? No? Oops! Did I just flick a bug off my shoulder?

  146. ce5nt…did you mean to say FEELING BLOATED?

    I recently wrote an email to ckloh. The essence of that email was on my participation in this forum. It seemed the ckloh had the strange idea that I’m shying away from this beautiful place. What gave him that idea, only god knows. I told him that I’m not afraid of being criticised. I criticise others if I see something that deserves the criticism. On the other hand, I also compliment when I see a good clue.

    In the mean time, I also throw in my past questions and allow the possibility of getting criticised. And indeed I received some criticisms/comments, e.g. “one word from more-than-one-word signage” (And by the way, it doesn’t mean that I’m not going to maintain my ‘style’ in future hunts!). In my email, I told ckloh that I am willing to offer my face for others to learn to shave; I’m willing to take the risk of getting my face cut in the process!

    And so, claire, before we proceed any further, are you sure you can handle the shave? For the moment, never mind WHERE we’re gonna shave you, but sometimes you can get cuts, you know! And it hurts too!

    In spite of whatever your answer’s gonna be, I am happy to see that we now have another contributor to this forum. Welcome into the open, claire!

    p/s: I think I kinda like your style, ce5nt!

  148. Shave away ckoh! But don’t cringe when I shave you back. Whether we get hurt by criticisms or not is entirely up to us, depends on how we set our minds to take it.

  149. Ahhh… that’s the spirit, claire! *… sharpening blade and checking out where to shave…*

    I think by the end of July, we’re all gonna be experts on food courts. That reminds me, it’s lunch time now!

    Later folks.

  150. claire,
    Are u going to mentioned how many words for ur Q or u just going to leave it open ended?

  151. oops…sorry claire,miss the (11). will start engine now….:)

  152. Hehehe…I can hear Ad’s engine chugging along. Mmm…all these criticisms and debates are giving me an adrenaline rush! *Blushing*

  153. josh:

    Would I want SMS spam? A plain and simple No.
    Personal number – lah! Sure you will faham.

    If anyone out there (the 90%?) wants to declare yourself as a new and keen TH enthusiast – go ahead, break the code all by yourself (Pandang Belakang – your conscience is watching over you) and SMS me. I will on behalf of this community gladly welcome you.

    In case someone does publish my number here – please delete the posting. (Now, did I start something I am going to regret for life?)

  154. claire: Yes, you are right, I did mean bloated. This keyboard doesn’t spell very well.

  155. ckoh:
    PODIUM FINISHERS: just the 3 and Sabah is leading 2-1.

  156. 2R1I: Must sincerely commend you on your uncanny ability to see through the mist, fog and smog and still shoot the target spot-on. Bravo!!!

  157. Yes, ce5nt, good to know that. But on the other hand, still sad to know that we Sabahans are a bit too slow. Well, maybe next time lah.

    And yes, 2R&1I, amazing ability! It is quite something to get an answer based on a clue that is “…misleading (for the wrong reasons) and wrong.” claire, this guy doesn’t need no shaving!

  158. THEOREM:
    Don’t let what you can’t do (take criticism) stop you from doing what you can do (criticise).

    A)If you are thrilled setting questions, just do it!
    B)If you are thrilled cracking questions, just do it!
    C)If you are thrilled watching the set questions cracked, just watch it – you may get drawn into A or B.

  159. All the practice working on questions from this blog must have helped (wink wink!).

    I have a clue what Claire wants but it needs some wild imagination too. I think I need a break. I am going for a vacation, folks. Be back tomorrow when ckloh releases his next question.

  160. Take your time on your return trip, 2R&1I. Hopefully, that would give us the opportunity to beat you to the answer!

  161. 2r&1I

    Thanks for your cooments tho on Q3, I do agree that it’s badly constructed, but I really don’t get what you mean by:

    This part of your sentence is cryptically read to mean, the letters “p-a-s-t-o-r” needs to be removed from a synonym of church leader (since clearly there is no pastor amongst these 2 words). That is why it was misleading.

    Why the synonym and why ‘pastor’ needs to be removed from it? Also, I don’t get the “since ther’s clearly no pastor amongst these 2 words”. Which 2 words? I’m really lost. Please explain. I really appreciate you comments.

    Also, please answer my query about the question mark in place of “sounds like”.

    You have been silent on my Q4 explanation (Food Court). It’s ok if your opinion of it is negative, at least it’s constructive. I’m really learning from your help.


    Don’t you remember that you’ve already commented on Q4? Based on Ad’s (wrong) analysis, you said it needed a major overhaul. So now it is “exceptionally lousy?” I am the first to admit my amateur crafting leaves a lot of to be desired (I’m a newbie hunter and not a coc, remember?). I really appreciate the kindness and patience of 2R&1I and ce3nt in helping me improve and they’ve never used a harsh word even when they feel my Q is ‘lousy’. Your adulation of the masters is overwhelming, can’t you spare some kind words for newbies like Claire and myself? But I guess in life one has to take the good with the bad.

  162. claire, are you sure it’s still in the menu after bird flu scare?

  163. pink, please accept my apology. Looking back at my criticisms, perhaps it is harsh. Maybe being direct isn’t such a good idea after all.

    So far I haven’t criticised claire’s work — not yet. Maybe that will come later; maybe not. We’ll see… I’d imagine that if her clue ends up being ‘lousy’ too, I’d probably soften down the intensity of my ‘comments’. So far claire hasn’t declared that her clue is ‘very simple and straightforward’. Maybe she will do that soon, I don’t know.

    I think it was unfair and wreckless of you to have declared that your questions were ‘simple and straightforward’, because actually, they are far from simple and straightforward! I’ve thrown in quite a number of my own questions here and I don’t recall declaring any of them ‘simple and straightforward’, even if they really are.

    For those grandmasters here to spend time to investigate your questions and getting stumped in the process; and then to have been told that those questions are ‘simple and straightforward’ can be quite a hit to their pride. It is something like saying, “Master, I’m giving you simple questions, but you are still unable to solve it.” It can amount to an act of belittling the masters, you see. Scroll up for a bit to find this post:

    Popular dish found in most foodcourts (not all).
    Very easy.
    Easier than Q4.

    See what you can add on.”

    See what you make of it this post.

    And yet it is OK if indeed that declaration was justified. But it’s not. Perhaps I acted overboard. I will contain myself in the future. And I’ll refrain from commenting on your Qs. Fair enough?

  164. blur-blur…oh no! I just had it last night! Should I go see the doctor now? Hehe…now let’s not frighten anyone else away.

    Comments anyone? Ckoh, aren’t you going to shave me?

  165. 2R&1I…since you have a clue about what I want (which requires a wild imagination), I’m eager to see what it is. 🙂

  166. Hehehe… nah… not yet. Still deciding for a spot to shave.

    Jokes aside, I haven’t really seriously looked into it yet. About to leave the office now. And then something to do later tonight. Maybe much later tonight, if I still have the energy!


  167. Oh Claire. Claire …

    Claire, I’ve told you before “Don’t you dare!”
    (recognise the above?)


    A double jeopardy.

    Niche – a position
    well suited – as in designer clothes of Calvin Klein.

    As before, I would prefer 2R1I to comment on your style. Not my niche.

  168. BTW : fella’ bloggers – do not assume any of my “answers” are correct (as you can see in the past – I don’t always get it right …

    I am just putting in my 5 cent worth of guesswork, maybe, in some way, hoping to give newbies an early start on the mind-boggling journey.

  169. Last peek before I really go …


    would it be chicken chop?


    (1) I’ve already commented on your Q4. Please refer to my contribution on June 20th, 2007 at 10:46 am.

    (2) When you word the sentence as … “Church leader renounces drunk pastor” … to me it means that p-a-s-t-o-r is to be removed from Church leader or its equivalent and not vice-versa.
    eg. aprostophe renounces drunk paster = ophe (balance of letters)

    (3) In my book, no I can’t accept a “?” at the end of the question being an indicator for homonym. I know some CoCs use it to indicate anagrams too. You just have to adapt. But I typically use “?” to make fun of something non factual (as a pun).
    eg. Desert for surfers? (Ans: Sahara.dot.com)

  170. Holy cow! ce5nt, I am speechless! (Well not that I need speech for communicating here). You have just taught me a new idea, my man! I’ve never seen anything like it before! God bless you my friend! I am so happy with this new-found knowledge. I must thank Michael Pang for leading me here!

    Claire, is THAT the solution? I shall refrain from commenting on your clue. I can’t even if I wanted to. And even if that’s not the solution, I’m still happy — because of it, ce5nt has revealed to me a big idea! Thank you, ce5nt.

  171. So, just out of curiosity, ckloh, how many got that ROTI BAKAR in the end?

    As I was saying, ckloh, here in KK, although I’ve come across that term ROTI BAKAR before, it is more commonly known as ROTI KAHWIN. I’m sure ikan buntal would agree with me on this. It is ‘kahwin’ because of the combination of ‘kaya’ and butter for the sandwich. If the bread is toasted, we would normally say ‘panggang’, and only rarely ‘bakar’. Moreover, although I suppose it could be found in the food courts, roti kahwin is more commonly found in the conventional coffee shops or Indian restaurants. That’s why I had to think for a bit if that was indeed the answer.

    Interestingly, after that I was told that in West Malaysia, it’s the other way round, i.e. more commonly ROTI BAKAR, and less commonly ROTI KAHWIN. So it seems that we’ve all benefitted a lot from this single riddle!

  172. ckoh:

    (claire, 2R1I and I : exchanging winks and kind, approaching, tight-lipped smiles!)

    I am sincerely elated for you too on your new discovery, ckoh! Like you, we are still tuned in to Discovery Channel. It is an exciting channel to indulge in.

    I must say – I have not seen such a generous, open display of exhilaration on a blog!

    claire – take a bow! you take the honour for introducing DJs here! I merely introduced you.

    POISON (English) or POISON(French):
    Double Jeps come with a warning label – read it carefully before use. “DJs are always regarded as “boldeds” especially if mixed with other “poisons” – handle with care and a fair pair of hands.”

  173. oops, sorry: CHANNEL opening : meant to say “approving” not approaching (gives the wrong impression!)

  174. 2R&1I,

    (1) Your comment for Q4 on 20th June at 10.46am was BEFORE I gave my explanation at 2.56am:

    Doctor dissected = DOC randomly = DCO
    Reduced odoUR = UR
    Lower extremity = FOOT
    in = container indicator
    Hence: FOO dco ur T

    (2) Thanks. I understand now. In my inexperience, I took ‘renounces’ to mean ‘sever relations with’, i.e. ‘C’ walking away. I did think ‘C’ was too far way from ROCK. Lesson learnt. TY

    (3)I thought so, but had to ask. I’ve seen ? used for punning in crosswords. What about ‘in agony’ as anagram indicator?

    Really appreciate you help.


    Your riddle intriques me but have to come back to it later, after I complete some assignments.

    I don’t mind criticisms at all coz I learn from them. But what can a newbie like me learn from her riddles being branded “deplorable” and “extremely lousy”? “Needing a major overhaul” would be fair if you had seen my explanations and not just someone else’s.

    As for my claiming my clues to be simple and straight forward, that’s what I sincerely thought them to be, probably like you said, because I already know the answer. This is amply demonstrated in my simple (if faulty) explanations. I’ve always acknowledged that if anyone finds my Q’s difficult to crack, it must be on account of my faulty crafting. I’m here to learn the craft, not to challenge anyone with my Q’s. So I see no reason why the masters’ pride should be hurt. If that were so, they would have written me off by now. I’m sure they know I have genuine respect for them and really appreciate their sharing their knowledge with a nobody like me thru their constructive criticisms. That’s kindness. THEY don’t expect me to be as good as a master or coc.

  175. ce3nt, 2R&1R

    ckoh: “For those grandmasters here to spend time to investigate your questions and getting stumped in the process; and then to have been told that those questions are ’simple and straightforward’ can be quite a hit to their pride. It is something like saying, “Master, I’m giving you simple questions, but you are still unable to solve it.” It can amount to an act of belittling the masters, you see.”

    Please tell me you don’t feel that way. I apologise for having wasted your time trying to solve my badly-constructed clues. But belittle you and hit your pride? How could anyone even come up with such a notion? I may not be profus with my thanks, but grateful I definitely am.

  176. Commenting will be disabled for this entry.
    Pls proceed to https://riddleraiders.wordpress.com/2007/06/22/june-2007-riddling-riddles-question-4/

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