July 2007 Riddling Riddles – Riddle 8

July 20, 2007

The theme is still food court. For any Q&A correspondence and question answering, pls email to riddleQA@gmail.com

Riddle 8 and Riddle 9 will be the last riddles in this format, this arrangement. We will keep you all up to date what will be in place for August onwards soon. At the mean time, all the riddle close and open will be at 9.00 pm.

8. Normal Riddle

The fame around here resembles Charles of Charles Joseph Christ, for example. Adjust partially first to see this person everlasting high spirit. (7 letters)



Answer: Jus Oren

This is a clue where a few definitions/word plays are given to assists/confuses the solver. There are 3 hunters successfully broken the clue. Congrats!

What we want is stated in the last 4 words:

person = orang
high = initial indicator (normally used in down crossword clue)
everlasting high = e (if everlasting is written from top to bottom, then high indicates e)
spirit = juice

We want orange juice, but it doesn’t fit the 7 letters hint. So, one should suspect it is the Malay version, jus oren that we want, if you manage to break the 4 words. Need to double confirm this with the rest of the word play.

Word play clue

Charles Joseph Christ = name
Charles = first name, forename
Joseph = middle name
Christ = surname

Charles of Charles Joseph Christ, for example = forename
The fame around here = f (oren) ame
Here = oren
Partially = indicator to take partial, part of, a portion of the intended word
Adjust partially = jus
First = indicate jus come first before oren
So, answer is jus oren

Jus oren match the 7 letters hint. And to confirm the answer, need to check with the last 4 words of the riddle as mentioned above.

Subtle hint

We used Charles Joseph Christ, for example, as he is the Governor of Florida. A very very subtle hint that the answer is related to Florida. Florida is a state famous for orange and their official state beverage is orange juice.



  1. Q8 a normal riddle? Sounds more like one of Ckloh’s killers to me. Will read it again tomorrow.

  2. Haha. The riddle is broken almost immediately after it is posted. So, don’t worry it is highly solvable.

    If you notice it carefully, the hints are everywhere.

  3. NOT IN VERY HIGHT SPIRITS! (ckloh:note the spelling!)
    Saturday was a disaster for regular hunters at the STFOGA “event”. I refuse to give it the TH tag. Read more about it in Michael’s blog. No need for this blog to duplicate the stories.

    Well at least 12 teams got their money back. 3 regular teams went along with the game and ended up with nothing – well maybe some food at the high tea.

  4. Wow! What a departure from the past riddles here! This question contains 21 words! I think the only other time I saw such a long question was in the Toyota Amazing Trail Hunt 2007.

    But I am very exhausted right now. Just came home from Cameron Highlands. Brain dead! Travelled all the way to KL to Cameron Highlands for treasure hunt…. totally nuts! If I am going to try this riddle at all, it will have to wait till tomorrow. Right now, just gonna have a nice hot bath and then settle down to Smallville. I hope JJ will be done with Fairytopia by 10pm.

  5. Oops! I meant 22 words… I told you I’m brain dead right now!

  6. ERRATA: Subject heading should read : NOT IN VERY HIGH SPIRITS! (ckloh: note the spelling!) – must be thinking more of the high-tea than the low-spirit of the “event”!
    Luckily for R’US : we had a successful outing today to erase the nightmare of yesterday.

  7. ckoh: Congratulations to you for winning the KL2CH hunt! Do share stories from there soon! Meanwhile, have a well deserved headrest.

  8. ce5nt. Congratulations.

  9. ce5nt, thanks. Noted spirits.

  10. 2R1I,

    Text messages are hazardous. I think you must have misunderstood me. T4 was about a specific drink (Fruit Tree F&N), but asking for the lime flavour. However, as I said, we couldn’t find the lime flavour in well over 20 shops along the route. In the end, those who submitted Fruit Tree (but of other flavours) got 2 pts out of the full 5 pts. We didn’t submit T4. We didn’t know that the CoC would be that generous!

    As for your “2140”, I can’t make the connection with MINX, and would be pleased if you could explain it.

  11. Thanks, ce5nt.

    It was my first overnight hunt. Cameron Highlands is similar with our Kundasang here in Sabah. I didn’t know it was such a long way from KL (I believe it’s 280km one way). Oh what an experience! The hunt Qs were nothing out of the ordinary (I will elaborate on this later).

    I think the most traumatic experience about this particular hunt was when I had to go through a sleepless night in Cameron Highlands because my teammate snored like a V6 lorry diesel engine! The hotel should invent a special mattress that can fit into the bathtub!

    There were very few experienced hunters. According to my team mate, he could only recognize about 5 – 6 teams from several past hunts. The rest were probably newbies. So the race was actually amongst 6 – 7 teams. The format of the hunt was quite interesting. We started with a challenge. Each team was required to collect items including 2 sunglasses, a flower garland, and some other stuff. These are then brought to a station. We then had to put on that ridiculous grass skirt, the flower garland, ‘weapons’ crown etc and pose for the camera! It took about 1.5 hours for the challenge for the sake of 10 pts.

    The treasures were not so difficult. We more or less cracked the clues within a few minutes. But we knew that we were going to have problems with the last treasure. It was the Fruit Tree F&N of the lime flavour. We went to so many places and just couldn’t find the lime flavour.

    OK, let me post this first, and then continue in another frame…

  12. The Qs were not horrifyingly difficult. In fact, we more or less cracked all the clues. But when it came to spotting them on the board, now that’s the tricky part! According to the local champ, we needed someone like the driver of Hunters ‘R’ Us, because he simply has the amazing talent in spotting answers on signages!

    I’ll be discussing only some of the questions here, as I don’t think the others are tough and they’re a far cry from DECRIE and CROSSJACK and 2R1I’s 4D!

    First, we stumbled on:

    Q) Astonishing refreshment suitable for a TV race programme.

    I’m sure most of you here on the blog would immediately see the word ‘Amazing’ leaping to the eye. There was no doubt in my mind that that MUST be the answer! But damn! We couldn’t find it on the board! The answer was ‘Amazing Water’. We wanted to tembak ‘Amazing’ but wasn’t sure what’s the rest of the words found on the signage. In the end, we tembak Restoran Go Gold Hill. This was obviously an inferior answer. Of course in the Levita series, there’s Levita Go and Levita Gold, but still hard to connect to the TV race!

  13. The next Q that apparently baffled every other team was like this:

    Q) A rich version ahead makes it compassionate love for others.

    Those of you who’ve hunted in my hunts before, and those who’ve been following this blog would know that this so-called jigsaw style is one of my favourite way of setting my Qs. Long before we reached the Q sector, we figured out the answer.

    ‘version’ is of course an anagram indicator. We need to rearrange the letters in ‘A rich’. The result of that is then placed ‘ahead’ of something and that would make the definition for ‘compassionate love for others’. Mathematically, it’s something like this:

    (anagram of) A RICH + ? = compassionate love for others.

    CHARI + ? = compssionate love for others

    Therefore we are looking for ‘TY’ so that we would end up with the word CHARITY.

    A) TY Used Car

  14. Next, we had:

    Q) Neptune’s fork wil give you the chills here.

    Again there’s no doubt that the answer had something to do with TRIDENT. The item is a huge 3-prongged fork. It was obvious that we’re looking for some cold storage or frozen foodstuff. The other possibility was something scary, because something scary would ‘give you the chills’ too! But we failed to spot it on the board. We spent some time going back twice, but still failed.

    In the end there was nothing wrong with our analysis. The answer was indeed TRIDENT FROZEN (can’t remember the whole answer). The reason we couldn’t find this obvious answer was becuse the board was no longer there!

  15. Next,

    Q) In between them you’ll see either Will or Tommy.

    For this particular Q, I’d like a bit of discussion. Imagine that you’re already time pressure; and you’re blind to all the sign boards. But rather than simply leave the space blank, you need to tembak with something. The only striking sign board within that sector that had a ‘remote’ possible connection with the clue was MINAT (a supermarket). Another board that attracted my attention then was LEE (brandname of jeans).

    How would you deal with the situation? What are your line of thoughts? If tembak at all, what would you tembak? This very Q cause quite a commotion in my team. Local champ was practically breathing fire under pressure!… hehehehe. Interesting to see how some people handle pressure!

  16. ckoh: are you trying to say the answer is either Minat or Lee?

    Somehow, i think both are not. My thoughts would be Lelaki Hitam or something to that effect as “In” between them will give you Man In Black. hahaha…just tembaking.

  17. Just came back from Rotarian meeting!

    Yes, Ad, that was mainly the debate we had in the car. My contention was that the Will and Tommy clearly pointed to ‘Men in Black’, which was the famous title of the movie. And since the question started with ‘In between them…” I would GUESS it meant we are looking for Men… Black. The reason was that if there’s a sign board containing MEN Black, then by inserting the IN between ‘them’ we will get the title of the movie. That’s logicl enough.

    But there is another — although weaker — possibility. The letters MB. The title of the movie is also MIB. But I didn’t think this was likely to be the case. My point was that if the CoC wanted to refer to the MIB then it no longer fit the IN between. He would then have to say I between. So I was drawn to MEN BLACK again.

    BUT!! we couldn’t spot that board! Yet we still want to tembak SOMETHING! How lah!? Local champ said tembak MINAT. I said why? Because M in AT. What’s that AT got to do with BLACK? He said must tembak intelligently. Since we see MINAT, he said that’s a more intelligent tembak. Moreover, there’s no MEN BLACK seen around that sector. Besides, it is also harder to believe that there’s such a sign board. MEN BLACK is a strange name to be found on sign boards!

    In the end I wrote — blindly — MEN BLACK anyway! That was such a difficult thing to do. Local champ was quiet for a while. Student lawan tauke lah! But at least the other master supported my argument. Never mind if it’s wrong… but on logical thinking, still held water in my opinion!

    When the answer was revealed that night:


    It was so close! Look at the Q. In between… you’ll see EITHER Will…. That explains the singular ‘MAN’. When we counted back the score, I think we were awarded 1 point for this possible 3 pts after all. Truly the CoC was very generous that night!

  18. And finally, the story of how the lessons from RR blog backfired…

    Q) Order associated with the 5th in the magical series.

    I think it is safe to say that most people will immediate see the word PHOENIX when they read this Q, especially during the excitement of the latest Harry Potter movie and the release of the latest book.

    Now within that sector, there was one very striking sign board: PHONENIX ENTERPRISE (phone shop). Can you see the problem with this board? We are looking for PHOENIX whereas on the board we have phoNenix. That extra ‘N’ in that phoenix told us in our team that that board was obviously intended to be a red herring. I myself have set the red herrings in my past hunts. And then 2R1I had also discussed this topic here.

    Of course there must have been another sign board within that sector with the correct spelling PHOENIX. This is all logical thinking, you see. I mean, obviously TOS can’t possibly overlook that extra N in that name? But it’s not easy to remain calm under time pressure, going around reading all the finer prints for PHOENIX. And after spending precious minutes, there was still no PHOENIX. So, how lah? Are you going to give that satisfaction to the CoC, and go for the PHONENIX anyway?

    Well, in the end, we went ahead with the PHONENIX ENTERPRISE anyway eventhough we were aware that that wasn’t the intended answer; that that was the red herring…

    Then that night, when the answer was revealed:


    Oh how frustrating that was! We wasted precious time looking for the PHOENIX because we were so sure that the above answer was not the one. And yet, it turned out that THAT WAS the answer after all. How should we know that TOS could overlook that!? We got the points, but not the satisfaction. 2R1I, see what you have done to me? You reminded me about the red herring and we ended up losing precious time!… hehehehe. Anyway, no one raised any objection. I guess everyone also got the answer and they were happy to leave it that way.

  19. ckoh, these technical inconsistencies occur from time to time, including dropped signboards, questions in wrong sector, missing sector etc.

    The advise is just to play it (safe) according to your usual game. I think you did the right thing, dude!

    Yesterday’s MS hunt was a very good example … it was riddled with red herrings, I counted at least 5 including a red-herring treasure too. I think there were many hunters who picked up “PHONENIX” and left the sector, and got hurt in the end (you’ll realise from the scores)!

  20. ckoh, just incase you did not know, the COC that did the MS Hunt yesterday is not known to producing scores like what happened yesterday. Typically in their hunt, 20th position starts with 90 pts (out of 100 pts).

    So yesterday’s hunt, people just fell into the “comfort” trap not realising that the red-herrings were well laid out.

    So let me know your choice folks, play it safe OR save your play because of time?

  21. dropped signboards, wrong spellings and wrong tulips. Welcome to TOS Hunt!

  22. victim,

    Although this may seem surprising to you, I am quite forgiving to CoCs. Having set hunts before, I should know that we are not perfect beings. We are humans after all. We strife very hard to be perfect, but we are simply not!

    When TOS did the DBKK in February, I think it must have been the 4th (or was it the 5th) question that we spent a lot of time looking for the answer. It was a very crucial decision. If you drop the earlier Qs you could get hurt later on when there is a tie-breaker decided based on question countback. So logic will tell you that you MUST always try to get the earlier Qs correctly answered if you can help it. But in that case, it was a ‘technical’ error. The answer was in another sector. Which meant we wasted the time for absolutely nothing! Of course we all got the free points, but some hunters did not waste too much time there!

    In last Saturday’s hunt, I didn’t feel too bad for the missing TRIDENT board. It’s not easy to set such a hunt. And I was later informed that they did check on Wednesday and the board was still there then. It was something not so easy to control. I’m a bit annoyed of the PHONENIX though. It is the type of mistake I think should not happen — at least not by TOS!

    But taken as a whole, to me TOS has been doing OK so far. They are professional and reasonably reliable and I hope they’ll keep up the good work. There is always room for improvements, of course. At least they didn’t end up being famous like the CoC of STFOGA — famous for all the wrong reasons!

  23. victim’s comments have some truth to it. clearly ckoh has not been hunting enough to be beyond forgiving!

  24. Yes, that was what I was about to add. Indeed I haven’t been hunting enough. I readily admit that I am a new hunter and still a lot to learn. What I’m trying to say is that I don’t expect CoC to be perfect. It is good if they are!

    I really need to get exposed to other CoCs too. My ambition is to hunt in Michael Pang’s hunt one of these days. I was told that his Qs are challenging. And I also hope that I’ll be able to do the Sun Hunt. But probably I won’t be able to achieve that this year. Well, maybe next year then!

  25. given, people do make mistakes but if the same mistakes are repeated hunt after hunt, week after week for years now, it is still forgivable mistakes or simply TOS “tidak apa” attitude?

  26. Hmmm… if indeed that has been the case — that the same mistakes have been repeated again and again over the years, then of course it is not forgivable especially if I am robed of big money!… hehehe. I don’t practise double standard when assessing the performance of others. If they are bad, then they are bad. I don’t care if they’re TOS or any other hotshot event organizers.

    From the limited experience that I’ve had with TOS, I thought they’re not so horribly terrible, but I may be wrong. My comments on them have been strictly based on that limited scope.

    Dropped signs, oversights in spelling, wrong sectors, wrong totals tallied, awarding points for wrong answers, deducting points for right answers – you-name-it, someone-has-done-it! Repeating them is a “normal risk” of clerking a course . Expect the unexpected – again! For out of town hunts – the risk of it happening is even more likely. A test of patience, I guess!

    Your stories have what web critics call “stickiness”.
    A compliment – meaning surfers find your web site interesting enough to “stick around” …! We can imagine ourselves in your situations through your stories! Don’t stop!

  29. As I was saying in the other thread, the hunters that day mostly had a hidden talent in formula 1 driving skills. You should’ve seen them all after the last Q, and they’re all rushing to beat the time to reach the finish station.

    I’m sure most of you freak hunters have experienced the dying minutes, if not seconds towards penalty time when your hard-earned points would be deducted! That’s when all the cars on the road are apparently involved in a BIG conspiracy to slow you down; every one takes forever at the toll gate; every traffic light will be red when you get to it; and every second ticks twice as fast!

    So what do you do? You start cursing those drivers who’re blocking you way. You muster all your hidden talent to drive faster than formula 1 drivers. And you start composing your excuses on why you ended up in time trouble.

    Of course by then there must be something wrongly carried out by your teammates earlier in the hunt. Perhaps he spent too much time looking for the answer in that sector; or he spent too much time looking for that treasure and still ended up without that treasure anyway! He should have done it this way or that way so that the time would have been utilised more efficiently!

    And after all that, you’ll end up 2 minutes late! You can’t decide whether all the excitement should be considered fun or stressful!

  30. ckoh:
    I imagine this peace-loving city will be spared of this.

  31. After all those hair-raising experience, you get the consolation of winning the hunt. After that, when you think back of the situation in the car, you just can’t help but smile to yourself — or rather to your excited teammate.

    Then came the post-mortem. Several times you hear the master say, “you still have a lot to learn. Next time you should drive, and I will show you how to do it right.”…….”You should see Margaret, she’s very detailed”…. “You should see Chai, he’s very sharp and can spot the board.”… “You should…….”

    And then comes bed time…. “Are you a light sleeper?” Oh how I dread that question! “I snore, you know!”

    “Oh, it’s OK lah… I am so tired, I think once I fall asleep, I’ll not be bothered with the snoring..”

    How wrong could I be!…

  32. Nah… same kind of animals, ce5nt. You automatically develop the skills!

  33. And so a lot of lessons learned! Now I need to get in touch with Margaret and Chai. Who knows, if I am lucky, I’ll get to learn something from the lovebirds.

    Those of you who’re not familiar with these names, try to search through an article of treasure hunt in The Star a week or two ago. Otherwise, an easier way is to follow the link on Michael Pang’s blog entitled “Well-said”.

    Suddenly treasure hunt becomes almost like a family affair. Malaysia become so small, huh? Everyone seems to know each other so well!… Ummm… well, maybe not all lah, right Edwin?

    Oops! JJ’s bedtime! this will have to continue tomorrow, folks!

  34. ckoh, you should try getting those F1 plugs!

    Hmmm, maybe not … since you’re lying so close to the engine, I am pretty sure nothing will work!

    Perhaps finding a comfortable spot in the bathtub will be your best solution.

  35. 2R1I,

    We are not talking about the engine that’s cruising on the highway here. If it was cruising on the highway with the gear fixed on ‘D’, then that’s not too bad. You know how it is with the human mind. If you are really tired/sleepy, and you’re exposed to something noisy, it might still be OK if that noise is something constant, i.e. without fluctuating pitches.

    But here we’re dealing with a ‘manual’ lorry stuck in a traffic jam. It changes gear all the time; and the driver has the habit of accellerating and hitting the brake within very, very short distances!

    No, take it from me, no amount of plugs can help!!!

  36. Can anyone tell me what are the criteria for joining the Hunters’ Inc blog? I’m keen to see more elaborated report on the STFOGA, and apparently there’re some photos found in the Hunters’ Inc. Or perhaps the way I give my comments are just not welcomed in that blog?… hehehe

  37. Hey ce5nt & 2R1I,

    I realise that it’s not so easy to conjure up Qs for a meager 20 possible answers only. It would be very easy for the solvers to guess the answers! I’m going to send only 3 (instead of 5) Qs to 2R1I soon — the intended targets should be from the 20 answers of the Bloggers Hunt. The ratio is therefore 3:20.

    2R1I – we should have set up 40 Qs that week!
    Just teasing, ckoh! We’ll be happy with any number you care to brew. Thanks for trying.

  39. ckoh:
    Just need a yahoo id. Up to moderator to accept or not.

  40. 40 Qs!?… very funny ce5nt. I’m gonna start charting my route/set Qs for an unofficial hunt in a couple of weeks’ time. Only weekends available for doing these things! Perhaps after that hunt, will have some more interesting Qs to publish here… more discussions will come folks!… hehehehe.

    Anyway, I’ve sent the 3 Qs to 2R1I yesterday. And this morning, I’ve sent them to ckloh. But I leave it entirely up to him when he wants to publish them here.

    Since the scope of possible targets will be so small, there will be higher success rates for tembaks. So I’d suggest that all answers should come with a brief explanation.

  41. ckoh, … and I’ve replied to your email with my comments. Read it and let me know if you are in agreement.

  42. 2R1I, I think we’re all gonna have a big debate here soon! Oh I am really getting shaved BAD this time. It’s all ce5nt’s fault!

    Hey ce5nt, see what you’ve done?…hehehehe. Now I’m in a hole! But still have a bit of time to prepare for the shave, because ckloh will only publish the Qs next week. So I’m safe for the moment…

  43. hmmm…i take my hat off to the 3 orang that manage to answer. Though i didnt give it too much thought as have been really tied up lately but i dont think i would have gotten it anyway.

    Am curious or blur as i cant seems to understand why everlasting = e and how adjusting partially = jus though i can see jus in adjust.

    Esp the jus part as in normal TH Q, when one use partially, is from either end of the word and not from the middle. So, i feel it is unfair to the solver in this manner. If you wanted to get jus, you could have for example use “Just partially first…” or some other form of making the sentence.


  44. Ad, thanks for the comments.

    The reason behind “everlasting high” is updated as at above.

    This is an interesting comment. The use of “partially”, whether it is alright to use this as the indicator of a hidden word inside, rather than from either end of the word.

    I must say you are quite right on the actual hunt questions, where “partially” will normally be used on either end of the word.

    But in cryptic clue in crossword, “partially” is widely used as an hidden indicator.


    Please search for “5.3 Hidden words” in the wikipedia, and see the usage of partially as the “Hidden words”.

    In this article it mentioned that it is alright to use “partially” as an “Hidden words” indicator where this is when the answer appears in the clue, but it is hidden within one or more words. Example given, shows that it can be in the middle.


  45. Good question, ckloh. If not for pink’s comment (see the very first post of this thread) I would’ve sworn that this riddle was crafted by her! It is very much like her style. Hmmm… so it seems like pink is not the only cryptic crossword player in the RR team.

    I readily admit that I wouldn’t have been able to solve this question even if extra time’s given. I am simply defeated. It is a very strange cryptic clue on accounts of its length. 22 words for a clue! Although I doubt that there’s any hard rules against long cryptic clues.

    I am not very happy with everlasting high = e. My objection would be similar against ‘reload coupon’. If the answer for ‘reload coupon’ wasn’t orientated vertically, I would’ve challenged it! But ‘Reload Coupon’ was vertical, so it fitted the ‘uprising’.

    I think I’d be happy with ‘everlasting high = e’ if we’re playing a crossword puzzle where the solution is orientated vertically. I don’t think ‘everlasting high = e’ is very accurate here. But I may be wrong. I myself have just embarked on playing the cryptic crossword very recently, and I’m sure many of the masters here can tell! The way I set my questions would’ve shown that I knew little of crosswords. But here, we’re not dealing with crosswords. Using the ‘high’ or ‘top’ to mean the first letter of a word is not so accurate in my opinion.

  46. Wow! I just noticed Ad and ckloh discussing about treasure hunt at 3 and 4 in the morning! You guys are nuts, you know that?… hehehe. Do you people ever sleep!? How do you keep your eyes open at work? I think if I were to live in KL, I will die faster. I just can’t survive without enough sleep. I guess I am just one of the weaker species of the human race.

  47. Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh! No comments.

  48. No comments, 2R1I? That’s not like you, my friend! That outburst, “Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh!” surely means something? Please enlighten us, what was it that caused that outburst.

  49. 2R1I, you are making me feel uncomfortable here… hehehe. Did I say something wrong?

    I’m trying very hard to be ‘nice’ with my comments. I thought I’ve been careful enough, and I’ve also refrained from giving my ‘extras’. Have I not improved with my comments?

    As for the ‘everlasting high = e’, I readily admit that I’m new to treasure hunts. It is just a new type of initial indicator to me. But I suppose it’s been used for treasure hunts in KL. It’s just my opinion that it’s not accurate in this case.

  50. ARRGHHH!! Oh I am dying here! Someone, please comment! I have quite a lot of negative comments about this question. But if each time I am the one initiating the negative comments, eventually I will end up getting kicked out of here!… hehehe

  51. OK, just ONE question (please?).

    What I know, the word ‘spirit’ normally refers to alcoholic drinks. Perhaps we can connect ‘spirit’ to ALE, BEER, WHISKEY, BRANDY etc. I find it very, very far to connect that word to JUICE. Has is been used often in KL hunts? Or has it ever been used before for this purpose?

  52. Oops!… that’s TWO questions!… sorry. OK, I’ll put myself under self-imposed gag order…. till this evening?… hehehehe

  53. everlasting high = e ..arghhhhhhhhh………

    partially = take any part of the word ..arghhhhh……

  54. I didn’t know that spirits = juice… always thought it was referring to alcoholic drinks or the other worldly beings or our inner spirit…?

  55. ckoh dear…don’t worry about your comments…
    I’m sure 2R&1I will be fine after he drinks some juice. Haha…

  56. Ahh… it’s evening already, right?…

    Well, claire dear, I’m glad to know that I’m not the only one ignorant of ‘spirit = juice’. At least I’m not alone! And I’ll never set a question based on spirit = juice, because I think it is wrong.

    Consider this question:

    Q1) Look back for muscle.
    A1) TOTO @ Sports TOTO

    ‘muscle’ is an English word, whereas the word which is eventually reversed (look back) is in Malay (OTOT). No clue is given to tell the solver that he has to translate into Malay. The translation process is done within the ‘analysis stage’.

    Now consider this question:

    Q2) Outlaw leader of our old country?
    A2) Malayan Banking

    We have a combination of definition and charade situation here.

    Outlaw (as a verb) = BAN
    leader (indirectly) = KING
    of our old country = Malayan

    Notice that the answer (BANKING) is the result of our analysis of the clue (definition), which are then connected together (charade) to become a single word. We can ‘translate’ as much as we like within the ‘analysis stage’. When we assemble the answer in the end — in this case, BAN + KING = BANKING — the result of that is taken as the answer. No need to translate further into PERBANKAN.

    Finally, consider this question:

    Q3) Person evidently first.

    Person = ORANG
    (E)vidently first = E

    So, ‘person evidently first’ = ORANG + E = ORANGE.

    So what’s the answer? Well, the answer is OREN (not ORANGE!). What do you think about that? Do you think that perhaps the question should have been, say:

    Q) Some more can last.

    Where ‘Some more’ = ORE; ‘can last’ = N.

  57. As a general guide, I normally prefer to be ‘economical’ on the words that I use in my clues, although not to the extent that my sentence becomes incomprehensible! If I can help it, I will try to use only the words which are absolutely useful so the solvers. Well, except for connecting words like ‘and’, ‘or’, ‘is’, ‘the’, ‘a’ etc.

    There is of course no hard rules on this, but it is certainly my own guide on how a treasure hunt clue should be.

    Having said that, I am aware that some CoCs (and I don’t know many of them) have the habit of conjuring up long sentences in which some words are absolutely ‘useless’ to the solvers! In some cases, they will even get carried away and give several lines, although the ‘actual’ clue is contained in only one of the many lines! One such CoC was a nice man named Baskaran who set a hunt recently in KK. He had an interesting style, and although I won that hunt, I didn’t think it was worth the lesson. Don’t get me wrong — winning was sweet!

    In this Riddle 8, I didn’t think it was entirely necessary to compose such a long clue, i.e. 22 words in 2 sentences. And I certainly didn’t think it was such a good idea to lead the solver to OREN in the first sentence; and then ORANGE in the second. I suppose the setter considered that some sort of deception!

    That word ‘resembles’ in the first sentence is a poor choice in my opinion. I am sure there are other more suitable words. Even a simple ‘IS’ can do a better job there.

    I am also not impressed with the inclusion of ‘first to see this’ in the second sentence. I think the sentence could have been better constructed.

    Well, claire, you say one ah!! If I kena banished from this blog, I’m holding you responsible!

    We are not sure ourself, but we found this

    7. Slang. alcoholic liquor.

    juice = spirit

    If I want to be = sebelas dua B, I don’t see why OREN = ORANGE can’t be used.

    If back EMIT = 4th Dimension, I don’t see why OREN = ORANGE can’t be used again.

    This is a double definition clues, well, in normal cryptic clues, the standard in cryptic crossword, first definition must be = ORANGE, and second definition must be = ORANGE. But they are not playing MANGLISH but purely ENGLISH.

    Thus, there is a new idea here, that double definition, Malaysia Version can be first clue = English and second clue = Malay. 2R1I has been the pioneer of trying this in the blogger hunt, 112B clues. And in fact, he even going further by giving a definition back EMIT = Time, that is not the answer but lead you to another answer which is 4th Dimension.

    ckoh, I don’t see you are consistent here, you have mentioned that all the blogger hunt questions are solvable and good, including the 112B, but when orange = oren for our question, you think this is not a good idea??

    And I think, my personal view of the blogger question here will not lead you to many conservative clues that you can find in paper. I see the blogger question here, is more creative, new IDEAS, that some are great ideas and some are utter disaster. COCs here that want to try new ideas, will test the market here, and see the response. For example renroc = LAROMA split, 2R1I = 4D, claire = decrie and etc. So, we encourage new ideas, of course some of them might not be so good one, but we need to encourage them to try it. If even a blog in internet can’t be used for this type of idea, where to test it, an actual hunt?

    You can see, most of the riddles here are different style every week, just to try out new ideas. But on this one, I incline to believe that ORANGE = OREN is fine. Normally we will just give one line OREN, but 2R hinted to give more hints on our future riddles, so we decided to add another clues ORANGE. There is precedence this is fine. And a (7 letters clue) is an additional clues which one to choose, oren or orange.

    The ideas of the clues is to create new ideas and test it out and see what other masters comment. Thus, if we can craft a shorter and more meaningful clues for the same answer, but it is just a normal idea like initial question, then most probably we don’t use that.

    This is to explain, why we use 22 words. I can craft a question using less than 10 words, with JUS OREN inside the words, and we have indicator that JUS OREN can find inside the words. Then, people will get the answers easily, and ckoh will give a good comment because the difficulty level to create such clues are easier. And everybody happy.

    But this is not the case here, we would rather create a controversial clues that have discussion point/educational values and everybody benefit of it rather than a great and smooth clues that any hunters with 1-2 hunts experience can answer it, but at the end there is nothing to discuss and nothing to learn. We are trying to do it on every riddles, but of course in some week, we failed on our mission.

    We found that we learn alot from all the comments from you all, so we would like to keep this up. Hope, the rest that do not participate in the riddlist riddle, find the comments and discussions helpful and help them to build up their hunt cryptic knowledge as we do.

    And if I am still not answering to your questions, why so long, well I can only say, to create such clues that I think we all will benefit from it, and it is fair, where a few of the regulars will drop this clues, yet a few of them can get this right, I need to used so many words.

    Still beginner here. But I am learning. I should let our language expert pink to craft it. But I feel I want to learn too, so I craft this one.

    Will keep it shorter next time, maybe 16 words. Haha. Just kidding.

    I have to agree with you. Better words can be used, and some words are rather unecessaries, again, point taken, noted. I will try to work on this area more. Just to give you a hint on all the 7 members, my command of language is the poorest. If happen you want to guess who create the clue, see the language used, if poor command of language, there is high chances it is created by myself. I am picking up on this area, I am learning language with claire and pink, and hope to improve on this.

  59. ckloh,

    Since it seems that I am the only one who gave comments on Riddle 8, let me try to respond to your comments. Then let’s see if we can come to agree on anything at all!

    I suppose my English command is just not up to the mark for treasure hunts. I honestly didn’t know that spirit = juice. Since you can find an authority that can confirm this, then I have no more argument. I suppose I will simply have to admit defeat!

    On this issue, I’d like to debate a bit. I think first of all, you are missing the point. I don’t think 2R1I meant to explain his answer with I WANT TO BE = SEBELAS DUA B. His explanation was like this:

    11-2B => I WANT TO BE (sounds like) ; and 11-2B => SEBELAS DUA B (translated/read in Malay). But not I WANT TO BE = SEBELAS DUA B. You must bear in mind that that question was divided into 2 parts. The first part was the sounds like clue, i.e. that 11-2B sounds like I WANT TO BE. The second part was (for the purpose of counter-checking) the anagram task to confirm that ‘sounds like’ part. In other words, it was possible for the solver to get to the answer by either one of those 2 parts. 2R1I meant to support either one by the other to be fair to the solver I guess.

    Consider for a moment – the question could be like this:

    Q1) Sound like one wishing to end up
    A1) 11-2B

    Or the question could have been line this:

    Q2) As bad blue sea perhaps?
    A2) 11-2B

    Q1 was a ‘sounds like’ problem; Q2 was an anagram problem. But never did 2R1I said I WANT TO BE = SEBELAS DUA B.

    You are free to give FISH even if you want us to translate that into IKAN; you are free to give LEAN even if you want us to translate that into SANDAR. I have no objection to that, and I have maintained that position up to now; I have not been inconsistent. When you analyse a clue, you are free to dissect, translate or convert as much as you like.

    But that’s not what you are doing here. To illustrate my point, let me use a more straightforward example. Your clues involved FISH = IKAN; and LEAN = SANDAR. Then because of the other indicators given in the clue, the solver ended up with NASI KANDAR. Fine, I can accept that. But imagine if that was not the answer. What if you expected KANDAR RICE instead, on the grounds that NASI = RICE? It is the transformation in the end from NASI KANDAR to KANDAR RICE that I disagree.

    Your clue tells the solver to find ‘ORANG’ from ‘person’; and that is to be connected to ‘E’ which is to be found from something else. After arriving at ORANGE, that is not the answer you want! What I’m saying, if you wanted OREN, then you should give clues to direct the solvers to OREN, not ORANGE. That’s why I gave an example: SOME MORE CAN LAST (because this will lead the solver to OREN, not ORANGE).

    OK, let me post this first.. and then I will continue…

  60. I am not particularly impressed with 2R1I’s 4D question. BUT!! his explanation for it is OK! If I object to his 4D at all, it’s because I thought it is very far-fetched to expect the solver to travel the distance. One will have to figure out ‘back issue’, ‘our sports’ ‘fourth dimension’ that container clue ‘inside’. There were so many clues to crack. The mere fact that no one could crack the clue even after the provision of ‘tips’ or ‘hints’ should serve as a good indication of the nature of the question. But I can live with that. All I can say is, I was defeated. But that is still OK because on here we have plenty of time to research or analyse as much as you like – not like in an actual hunt. After all, what is fair and unfair are relative terms.

    Likewise, renroc himself thought his LAROMA was far-fetched in an actual hunt. But on here, with so much time available to the solver, perhaps it wasn’t so bad.

    I do not admit that I supported totally the Bloggers Hunt questions. I objected to ‘Reload Coupon’, until it was revealed that the board was not so small. I objected to ‘Hand Wash’ also. I also commented on the use of ‘spanning across…’ for JASON. I’ve said before, when I assess the performance of others, I don’t apply double standard. If I see something wrong, I will say so. If I disagree, I will say so. I don’t care if the setter was a hotshot CoC. I am happily immune from that kind of blindness. I may be proven wrong in the end. That’s life, I will try to live with it.

    I think you are getting the wrong idea, ckloh. I am well aware of what to expect from the questions found here. Of course I am all out to encourage others to try out their ideas. But that’s what this is all about. When we see something new, we discuss, debate about these so-called new ideas. And that’s what I’m doing here with your OREN = ORANGE.

    From the little that I know, you don’t lead the solver to OREN in one line, and then ORANGE in the other line. So what’s next? What if I lead you to APPLE in one line, and then PINEAPPLE in the other line. What would you say then? You might as well don’t give that second line at all.

    But I leave it to the other masters to comment further… I may be wrong. What about ce5nt or cmliong… since they managed to get the answer, I suppose they will say the clue was impeccable?

  61. ckloh,

    Please don’t think that I am only criticising RR riddles. We are all here to learn. In fact I am learning too. The 3 new questions which I’ve sent to you for publication are also something new that I am trying out. Already I’ve got an interesting debate through emails. And I can tell you that that’s not the first time my questions received criticisms/comments. It is OK, you know? Let’s all of us debate and discuss freely… and then hopefully we will all learn some new tricks and improve ourselves further.

  62. ckoh,

    No worry, as we said earlier we don’t mind being criticised, this is the only way to learn. And I still remember long long time ago, I wonder how a person like you who hardly hunt more than 10 hunts, but can be COC and create well-crafted clues, you told me that you learn it by hard too by your output being criticised whilst you are perfecting it.

    So, we actually don’t mind, especially already get used to your style. Haha, no big deal, worst case, we can just exercise out last option, just kidding lah.

    Just that I thought I see some inconsistency from you, which you clarify, and I have to admit defeat that 112B is not a good example.

    So, I don’t have any example, so, we have open discussion again.

    In Cryptic Crossword (English), the rules is
    Clue 1 = Can have word play and get Orange
    Clue 2 = MUST have word play and get Orange

    then it is fair.

    In Hunt Malaysia Version (Manglish), is the rules below ok? This is what we are debating about between ckoh and ckloh. So, others please give comment.
    Clue 1 = Can have word play and get Orange
    Clue 2 = Can have word play and get Oren

    (Of course, either we need to accept both answers, or we have indicator to tell which one we want, in this case we indicate we want JUS OREN, because of 7 letters).

    Is this fair? Please let us know.

    ckoh, if we lead you to apple on one line and we lead you pineapple on the other line, either we accept both answers or we have an indicator for you to say which one we want, then it is fair.

    Recently, in Sun Corporate Hunt, in a treasure, one of the clues which greatly impacted the ranking of the top 10 sounds like this, they lead you to the Lipton Tea, but they also lead you to Kit Kat. But if you read it literally it is Kit Kat, and if you read it laterally it is Lipton Tea, but can’t explain the rest of the line, if you view it laterally. So, the answer is Kit Kat.

    Just point out this as, in hunt they do have this scenario. To me, to be fair, either you need to accept both or you have a strong indicator which one you want.

    And if you have put orange or orange juice in the answer, and can fulfill the 7 letters, then I will take your answer. Fair?

  63. ckloh, I am not familiar with the treasure question you cited. Apart from the recent KL-CH hunt and the Bloggers Hunt, I have never hunted in KL before. In this case, I am further disadvantaged with the fact that you are not providing me with the entire treasure clue. I am therefore incapable to give my humble anaylsis on the clue.

    My good friend, local champ actually mentioned that treasure to me too. But unfortunately he too didn’t give me the full clue. He merely mentioned the possibilities of both kit kat and lipton tea.

    I suspect that the CoC — if he is a good one — created the possibility of both kit kat and lipton tea as deception. Just like the concept of ‘red herring’ for route questions. The point is that you lead the solvers very close to a particular item, and there is something in the clue that ultimately pinpoint on a different item instead.

    So here we have two possibilities. (1) The CoC’s so good that he misleads the solvers to think of kit kat, whereas in the end there’s something that only lipton tea can fully satisfy. (2) The CoC isn’t good enough to the extent that he overlooks the second possibility!

    For example, in February, TOS did the DBKK Hunt. One of the treasures was a picture of two white cats. One was apparently an adult cat biting a kitten. The clue asked for something that’s most fitting for the picture. Almost everybody immediately saw the kit kat as the treasure. But it turned out that TOS wanted, specifically, the kit kat ‘bites’. A beautiful treasure clue in my opinion!

    Perhaps if you can send me the full clue for that kit kat/lipton I can then analyse it further. I am after all obsessed with analysing past questions. I learn a great deal that way!

    Oh by the way, the (7 letters) does not change my position on OREN = ORANGE in the least. But let the other masters voice their opinons. Maybe they have better justification for it.

  64. ckoh, I still don’t understand of this.

    You say, it is ok

    first clue = word play to get TIME
    second clue = word play to get 4D

    but you reject the idea

    first clue = word play to get JUS OREN
    second clue = word play to get ORANGE JUICE

    Please enlighten me, I don’t think I get your explanation right.

  65. ckloh,

    It seems that we’re having a lot of confusion here. Let me try to explain. Since you’ve provided an example, then I’ll also use that example.

    Q) Back issue with them and our sport’s initials inside.

    This is your choice of comparison. Apart from my comments on the ‘distance’ to be covered, I’m OK with the clue. Let’s analyse for a bit to understand this clue.

    The first half of the clue: “Back issue with them…” tells the solver to reverse something – maybe the word ‘issue’ itself; or maybe some other words that has a similar meaning with ‘issue’. In this case, in the end it‘s ‘EMIT’ (similar to ISSUE) that we need to reverse.

    Then we look at the word ‘and’. Here we need to know the style of the setter. When I first saw this clue, almost immediately I knew that the ‘and’ meant ‘for’. The reason I knew this was the case was because I analysed the setter’s past questions. Go back to the Bloggers Hunt to Q8. It was like this:

    Q8) A woman ahead and a physically-challenged pirate’s bosun will appear at a place where we can feast.

    In this Q8, you will notice that the ‘and’ takes the role of ‘for’, i.e. to make; or to produce; or equals to. It doesn’t mean WOMAN + BOSUN => FEASTING PLACE. Instead, it means WOMAN + ? = BOSUN.

    Having analysed Q8, I immediately saw that the 4D clue was essentially like this:

    Reverse of something EQUALS TO our sport’s initials inside (of the answer we want).

    Mathematically, we can express the clue like this:

    Reverse of ‘issue’ = TH inside ??

    Reverse of EMIT = ?TH?

    TIME = ?TH?

    And this was where I abandoned the task, because I saw no connection to solve the equation. Of course I considered many other stuff also (our sports = SUKMA?; Back issue = late? etc) – all ended up in dead ends. If only I knew TIME = 4th Dimension.

    OK, now we turn to your clue… First line (L1):

    L1) The fame around here resembles Charles of Charles Joseph Christ, for example.

    It tells the solver to put the word ‘fame’ (or its similar meaning) around the answer, and then the result will resemble (equal to) FORENAME. The analysis is like this:

    FAME around ? = FORENAME


    Therefore the ? must be OREN

    No objection here.

    Now we move to the second line (L2):

    L2) Adjust partially first to see this person everlasting high spirit.
    Although not in the best flow of the English language, it tells the solver to take only some of the letters from ADJUST; and whatever it is that we get from that, should come before ‘person everlasting high spirit’. In other words, you want JUS to come before ORANGE JUICE. So the answer is JUS ORANGE JUICE.

    L1 and L2 are TWO SEPARATE sentences telling the solver to look for TWO DIFFERENT answers. Those answers may be the same item in different languages, but they are DIFFERENT all the same.

    Look back at 2R1I’s question. Whatever it is that you need to do, at the end of that long distance/analysis, you only need to look for ONE specific answer.

    Make the comparison and think deeply about it. Tell me if you still can’t see the difference.

  66. ckloh,

    Thanks for sending me the complete clue for the treasure in connection with KIT KAT & LIPTON TEA. A very, very close call, I must say. I will analyse further on this interesting clue. (I always do that to improve myself!)

    But on the surface of it, I think the clues found in those lines were equally acceptable for both KIT KAT and LIPTON TEA. The only question is: Which one is a more fitting answer?

    Looking at a glance, I must say that LIPTON TEA is a convincing choice. Indeed LIPTON is found in “TULIP TO NO ONE’S..” And TEA is in “FATE ASCERTAINS..” Assuming that LIPTON TEA was also a sponsor’s item, then it fits line 3 too. The only problem would be to fit in “LITTLE DUBIOUS DEVICE”. And although ‘concoction’ normally refers to a drink, what I know, it is normally connected to a MIXTURE. Maybe a TEA connected to a MIXTURE could be debatable. I’m not talking about mixing with sugar. I’m referring to mixture as in mixing tea and coffee, something like that.

    On the other hand, we have KIT KAT. Here, we’re told that the clue is found in a tulip, and then later we’re directed to tulip no. 51. In that tulip, we are given “HAVE A BREAK” — a very famous tagline of KIT KAT. It also fits the little dubious device (KIT). The ‘concoction’ (not necessarily referring to drinks only) can be referring to cocoa, milk and other ingredients to make the wafer chocolate. However, I don’t know how KIT KAT can fit “fate ascertains..”

    In the end, if I was there hunting that day, maybe I would have chosen KIT KAT in the end on account of line 3 of the clue: “A hint of the sponsor’s item in no. 51 points to the concoction”

    After all the analysis, I can’t run away from that famous tagline “HAVE A BREAK…” And to me the concoction doesn’t fit the TEA perfectly.

    Again it would’ve been a very, very close call. But I don’t really like this clue because I think even IF indeed KIT KAT is a better fit than LIPTON TEA, there is still a lot of room for arguments. For example, I fail to see the significance of “… to no one’s surprise” and “… fate ascertains this little…” If anyone can tell me the significance of these, I’d appreciate it very much.

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