August 2007 – Riddles from RR’s Guests!

August 1, 2007

Remember to includes details as at below:

  1. What you want us to post?
  2. Email address to post the answer (if any).  

For themes riddles:

Remember to includes details as at below:

  1. Theme Riddle
  2. Themes (for example, food court, multi nasional and etc.)
  3. How many letters?
  4. Email address to post the answer. 

Please send these to riddleqa@gmail.com.

Blogger Hunt 2007 Encore II (by ckoh)

Please email the answers to ckoh1965@yahoo.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 3 Aug (Fri) to 10 Aug (Fri)

So here are the 3 Qs. The answers are found within those 20 answers of the Bloggers Hunt. Please be reminded that the questions and answers are NOT IN SEQUENCE.
The answers are taken from all the 20 answers of the blogges hunt (in no particular order):
01. First Knight
02. CVS Marketing
03. Reload Coupon
04. Dobi
05. Jason
06. Metro Security
07. Three A’s
08. Mee
09. Sukma Semangat Sdn Bhd
10. 11-2B
11. R & Y
12. Hand Wash
13. Lowanz
14. Foundation YAUM
15. White Board
16. Kafe Friendster
17. * (asterisk symbol)
18. MORI
19. Choffles
20. Stream
Questions (not in sequence):
Q1. 36 inches replacing and thus making a track event.

A1) R & Y

36 inches = ELA

and = &

ELA replacing & thus making a track event.


Q2. Spearlike weapon connected to a drawing item?

A2) First Knight

The notorious double jeopardy! The question (on the signboard) is FIRST KNIGHT, and the answer is LANCELOT. However, LANCELOT is not directly given to the solver. Instead, LANCELOT is given indirectly as a riddle!

But once the solver figures out FIRST KNIGHT = LANCELOT

Spearlike weapon = LANCE

a drawing item = LOT (as in drawing lots to select a winner)

LANCE connected to LOT = LANCELOT (which answers FIRST KNIGHT)

Q3. Owned by a vocalist, but for the lack of 501.

A3) Three A’s

Looking for something on a signboard that has (definition) similar meaning to “Owned by a vocalist”. But that something is incomplete – it is lacking 501 (but for the lack of 501). Therefore we need to add back that amount to the signboard.

501 + Three A’s

= 504 A’s (without disturbing the A’s)

And converting the 504 into roman numeral

= DIV A’s (Owned by a vocalist).


August 2007 – Virtual Hunt (by the 13th Second)

Please email the answers to viiviiviims@gmail.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 10 Aug (Fri) to 17 Aug (Fri)

Please refer to August 2007 – Virtual Hunt Q5, Q6 and Q7.


the 13th Second

August 2007 – Virtual Treasure (by ce5nt)

Please email the answers to ce5nt@yahoo.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 10 Aug (Fri) to 17 Aug (Fri)

Please refer to August 2007 – Virtual Treasure ce5ntreasure # 1.





  1. Those who’re interested to try these questions, please include short explanations to your answers. Only ONE try per question. Thanks.

  2. ckoh:
    Must be very good recipes! Will try to savour them!

  3. ce5nt,

    A bit from the discussions here; a bit of imagination; a bit of creativity. And then I’ve come up with these new recipes, my friend! So much so that I expect some regular hunters may NOT have the stomach for it!

  4. Hmmm… perhaps it’s time to give some hints/tips, huh?

    Q1 is meant to be the appetizer. Both 2R1I and ce5nt have managed to crack it. But of course they are both masters! In my opinion this clue is not very tough. It is achievable by hunters of all levels. This clue is true to my style in that I mean the solution to be simple but tricky. There is nothing very complicated about it. Therefore I don’t intend to give any hints for Q1 at the moment.

    The remaining two questions are the main course. And if you see ce5nt’s comment up there, you can imagine that the solutions are not so straightforward! For the record, ce5nt hasn’t submitted any answers to Q2 & Q3 up to now, so he still has a chance to do so.

    Q2 is a more complicated one. I have hidden the answer at some distance away. The sector is a very narrow one with only 20 possible choices. Therefore I felt that I was forced to complicate the approach to arrive at the answer. When I conjured up this question, in my mind I meant it to be solvable by people like pink and Dr Clue, because I know they are crosswords experts. Those who are not crosswords experts are also able to solve this question but maybe it is quite far-fetched! I believe if pink or Dr Clue has the opportunity to discuss their ideas with other hunt masters, they might just eventually get the answer!

    Q3…. hmmm… what can I say about Q3? Again I felt that I was forced to rise to the challenge to conjure up a question that is simple yet tricky. Well, I am convinced that I have achieved the ‘simple’ element. But I am not sure if I have achieved the ‘tricky’ element. I think I have achieved it too, but 2R1I thought otherwise!

    We will have a lot to discuss and debate about these questions, and I can foresee lots of ‘shaving’ ahead…

    Well, folks, I guess none of the above ‘hints’ can help you huh? Well, what did you expect? I took a good 15 minutes average to work on each question. Did you really expect me to just throw them away?

  5. ckoh:
    Great hints and tips – just like your 2 Qs – can’t see the trees from the forest! Have to leave them as they are. Forest conservation!

  6. ce5nt,

    I can see it all in my mind right now… you, pink, Dr Clue and claire within this very short sector. Probably will take all of you to contribute all the necessary components to assemble the answers — especially Q2. Unfortunately you are all not sitting in the same car!

    I have since received a couple of tries from some familiar names here. Two more have now solved Q1, which is the appetizer. I suspect many more will be able to solve Q1 by the time I reveal the answers in a few days’ time.

    But right now I am very excited because a master had successfully cracked my Q2 as well! Truly an awesome achievement in my opinion. What’s even more amazing is the fact that the answer’s accompanied by an impeccable explanation that is almost a verbatim of my own explanation! Oh I am so happy!!

    I am keeping my fingers crossed… will anyone be successful with my Q3 too?…

  8. UPDATE:
    Well, folks, the pace is picking up a bit now. There are 6 successful attempts on Q1 so far; and only 1 hit on Q2. No one has submitted any attempts for Q3. But of course we still have plenty of time. I have a feeling that someone will be submitting an attempt for Q3 soon.

  9. UPDATE:
    Listen up, folks!! The excitement is mounting now…

    Of the attempts so far, may I announce that the leaders are:

    1) renroc – Q1 & Q2 (Q3 pending)
    2) the 13th Second – Q1 & Q2 (Q3 pending)

    Then there are some who’ve managed to get Q1 only… still waiting for the attempts on the rest of the questions. I hope you guys won’t secretly get in touch with renroc or the 13th Second to get the answers… hehehehe. Keep trying, folks… the achievement is sweeter if you get it without any hints/tips!

  10. Oh how time flies… it’s Wednesday already…

    It seems that we’re getting stagnant again after that short excitement last night. May I express my admiration and respect to renroc and the 13th Second for their amazing talent and imagination in cracking my Q2. Who knows, maybe they will achieve Q3 today!

    But to those who’ve come to a dead end, perhaps the remaining questions appear impossible to crack. When submitting her (correct) answer to me, something the 13th Second said struck me as very interesting. She said that Q2 wasn’t that tough, but tricky enough to deceive her for many days. This is exactly what I had intended my questions to be — that the difficulty lies mainly in the tricks!

    By this evening, I will give some ‘soft hints’ to those who are still trying. I didn’t provide much help earlier because I thought the satisfaction would have been sweeter if the solver managed to arrive at the solutions without any help. I am sure renroc and the 13th Second would tell you so.

    Then if still can’t do anything after my ‘soft hints’ I will supply ‘big hints’ tomorrow evening. Fair enough? Then when I publish the successful answers on Friday, I will also separate them into groups of ‘NO HINTS’, ‘SOFT HINTS’ & ‘BIG HINTS’.

  11. Well, well, well, folks!… little did I know that some of you have not given up on my ‘main course’.

    Just shortly ago another celebrity master, Michael Pang, has submitted the correct answer (with explanation, of course) to Q2. Actually he had submitted the correct answer to Q1 earlier. Were you wondering why these crazy twisted-minded people are known as masters? Well, now you know! I hope those who’re stuck with Q2 are now more convinced that the answer is achievable! I’d really like to see a non-master achieving it next. Please?

    Q3 anybody?… A correct answer on this would really make my day!

  12. OK, I suppose it’s time to give some ‘soft hints’ now…

    SOFT HINT for Q1:
    ‘Connector’ words are useful not only for the purpose of smooth construction of sentences.

    SOFT HINT for Q2:
    In order to understand this question, you must know what’s the question to start with!

    SOFT HINT for Q3:
    We don’t have enough for the definition. What can we do about it?

  13. Hehehehe… I guess the hints above are too ‘soft’, huh? Well, try to work on them. If still dead end, wait for the ‘big hints’ tomorrow around the same time. If still nothing after that, perhaps it’s time to consider taking up another hobby…. hehehehe… nah.. just kidding!

  14. UPDATE:

    OK, so here are the result of the NO HINT category:

    1) renroc – Q1 & Q2 (Q3 pending)
    2) the 13th Second – Q1 & Q2 (Q3 pending)
    3) Michael Pang – Q1 & Q2 (Q3 pending)
    4) ce5nt – Q1 (Q2 & Q3 pending)
    5) claire – Q1 (Q2 & Q3 pending)
    6) Edwin – Q1 (Q2 & Q3 pending)
    7) ckloh – Q1 (Q2 submitted, but wrong; Q3 pending)

  15. Oops!… typo there!

    3) Michael Pang – Q1 & Q2 (Q3 pending)

    No one has submitted the correct answer for Q3 so far.

  16. I’d also like to mention here that I do not count 2R1I as a participant of this Encore II. He was the ‘test driver’ and spent barely an afternoon working on these questions at work! He got the correct answer for Q1, and tembak-ed wrongly for Q2 & Q3. I’m quite certain that if he had more time to think it over, he’d at least solved Q2 also.

    How about Q3? Well, that is a big question mark. Without any help, I think it is not a very easy question to solve! It is still possible to solve, yes, but one has to be really brilliant in my opinion. I am keeping my fingers crossed. I wonder if anyone would be able to solve it after the ‘soft hint’. Or perhaps it has to wait till after ‘big hint’?

  17. Hmmm… looks like business has been slow…

    No non-masters have submitted the correct answer to Q2. Neither has anyone given me the correct answer for Q3 too.

    Don’t worry, all’s not lost. You still have a final chance this evening; I’m gonna supply you with the ‘big hint’. After that I’m sure there will be more strikes…

  18. ckoh, for Q3 you’re introducing something that people are not used to doing. I’ll be very surprised if someone actually solves this one even with all your tips!!

  19. Yes, 2R1I, in my email to ce5nt, I said so too. I’m beginning to think that no one will solve Q3!

  20. And by the way, ce5nt, I’m blaming you for this!… hehehehe. With all of you grandmasters in the audience, and such a small sector of 20 choices, what was I supposed to do? I had no choice but to introduce something new!!

  21. But, 2R1I, for Q3, it is interesting that when I gave my explanation to ce5nt (he submitted an answer, but it was wrong and therefore disqualified to submit further tries), he thought it was brilliant!

    So two masters with different opinions completely in opposite directions! As I said folks, we’re gonna have some interesting discussion/debate here soon!

  22. ckoh, I will have a chat with ce5nt this weekend. Will let you know the outcome on whether he can convert me into thinking the Q is brilliant, or I can convert him into thinking it is not (ha ha).

    Let I mentioned in my email, purely on surface reading I too consider it brilliant. Unfortunately I found some holes (will let you reveal my thoughts later), which I think needs to be plugged in order for it to be considered brilliant!

  23. Yes, 2R1I, of course we will reveal each others’ views after the closing. I think it will be an interesting discussion. It won’t be very long now, I will send the answers/explanations to ckloh tomorrow evening. And then I’ll let him decide when to publish them. If he’s free I think he’ll most probably publish them tomorrow itself.

  24. Holy cow!!… just when I was about to lose hope for a successful submission, master renroc once again has proven that he’s full of surprises! Right on the mark with perfect explanation!! I wonder how long I will take to reach such a level of hunting mastery!

    So there you go, folks! Tough questions perhaps, but all successfully answered. Unfortunately so far no non-master has managed to solve any of the ‘main course’ questions!

  25. This poem (done in < than a minute) is dedicated to ckoh’s question 2:

    Question two, question two,
    What am I to do?
    My mind went astray,
    Out of the milky way.
    My writing skills reduced to doodles,
    Because here I am
    Scooping my brain
    That’s like soggy noodles!

  26. So OK, I’m late for my run! I’m feeling so happy now. And I can imagine the relief for renroc! Awesome… I’m speechless…

  27. ckoh,

    I’m nowhere near as strong as you make me out to be.
    Am afraid that the Riddle Raiders are going to be very disappointed this Sunday ! Certainly wouldn’t have solved your Q2 & Q3 in an actual hunt. There wouldn’t be 20 signs served on a platter with a week to mull over them. Even then, I needed a lot of
    luck, and it was not so much your soft hints, but rather 2R+1’s comments (3.09pm) and your post on ce5nt’s comments (3.53) which narrowed my search.

  28. OK, here are the BIG HINTS. If you still can’t get the answers after this, might as well wait for the answers tomorrow!

    BIG HINT for Q1:
    We need to replace AND with 36 iches, and as the result of such replacement, we’d get a track event.

    BIG HINT for Q2:
    For the benefit of the new hunters, there is a relatively rare type of hunt question known as the Double Jeopardy (DJ). The basic idea of the DJ is where the solver is provided with the answer, and he is then required to identify which is the question that suitably relates to that answer on the signboard. For example, in its simplest form, the solver is given “PIPES?”; and he is required to spot “PEPSI TWIST” on the signboard. Well, Q2 is a type of DJ too!

    BIG HINT for Q3:
    There is something on the signboard that means “OWNED BY A VOCALIST”. However, that something is incomplete because it is lacking 501. The solver needs to figure out which is that something on the board.

    There you go, folks! If those are not BIG HINTS, I don’t know what are! Go figure out till tomorrow night when all will be revealed…

  29. And now the update for the SOFT HINTS category:

    1) renroc – Q3
    2) Ad – Q1

    Those were the only correct submissions after the SOFT HINTS were published. Therefore, master renroc is the only one who’s successfully submitted all correct answers so far. In spite of his humble comments up there, I still consider it a major achievement. His comment also should give you a good idea of the ‘difficulty’ of the remaining questions. Apparently he expects many won’t be able to solve them! He wrote: “Am afraid that the Riddle Raiders are going to be very disappointed this Sunday!”

    But now that the BIG HINTS have been published, hopefully more correct submissions will follow.

    As mentioned, ce5nt submitted a wrong answer for Q3; and claire submitted a wrong answer for Q2. Those were surprisingly the very few submissions over the last 24 hours.

  30. I think you get it wrong lah! renroc is very humble, he will hunt with us this Sunday, so the comments is intended to 3 of us, claire, joshua and myself, that don’t expect too much from him, even he get all 3 correct.

  31. Oops! sorry I misunderstood! OK I take back… wrong interpretation… hehehe. Well how about it, ckloh? Are you going to try Q3 yet? Does the BIG HINT help at all?

  32. Oh yes, ckloh, whatever you do this Sunday, make sure you don’t let renroc drive! You don’t want him to drive!

  33. Why you say like that ah? renroc cannot drive meh? Are you hinting the best person in the team should not be driver?

    But I afraid this is not so true lah. I found out in some good team, the very good player is the driver. A team that have a driver that can solve, will have excellent advantage, as he can position himself nicely, have the best view by sitting in front and solve it immediately. If you have a driver/solver that have good observation, before you ask where is the starting point and end point of the quesiton, the question is already solved. Save alot of time on spotting the easy one, so have more time to tackle the difficult one. Just my personal opinion.

    But he is not driving. Joshua is the driver.

    On Q3, still don’t have clue leh.

  34. dear ckoh,

    Your big hints are no help at all-lah. Have already been working along those lines, but still mcc.

    Since i’ve still one bullet left, will probably just tembak and then wait for the answer. Can’t wait to find out the trick behind.

    (Raising my white flag!!!)

  35. The hint is as big as it’s gonna get. Giving anything more than that is as good as giving the whole question away! From 2R1I’s comment, I’m sure you’ve figured out that his disagreement is mainly on the way I’m adding back. He thinks the process of adding back that 501 is not quite right. And it’s from there that renroc got onto the ‘right’ track!

  36. OK, so I might as well go that extra distance with the hint, but still trying not to give away the answer to Q3!

    I think you clever people have already figured out by now that we need to add the (lacking) 501 to a specific signboard. Meaning we are solving the question by working our way backwards. Whichever board that gives the meaning of “Owned by a vocalist” as the result of that addition will be the board we are looking for. Logical enough?

    The tricky question is which one, and how to add back? That’s where the real problem is. Once you can figure this out, you are home free.

    Now, isn’t that yet another rephrasing of the BIG HINT given above?

  37. I can’t help but smiled to myself when I read renroc’s account of his journeys to the answers for my questions. I hope you don’t mind my sharing this with the audience, renroc.

    According to renroc, he got the answer for Q2 when he was having lunch. So who says that lunch is a leisure activity? In this case, it was such a productive session! And it’s also amazing how he suddenly — almost magically — thought of the solution!

    But how he got the answer for Q3 was even more interesting. He got it while driving home from work, having reflected on 2R1I’s comment yesterday afternoon and my response to that comment. So now we know that getting stuck in a traffic jam may be productive after all! But renroc, please pay attention to where you are going too, OK?

  38. Hmmm… still nothing up to now… perhaps I should keep bringing you people closer and closer to the solution throughout today, and see who’s the next one to get my idea!

    OK, here’s another step closer. When I said to add back, what does that mean? There are essentially two ways to add back.

    The first way is by adding LITERALLY like a normal mathematical summation, e.g. 1 + 1 = 2. That is the simplest and the most straightforward approach of addition.

    The second way of adding is a bit more complicated. It involves a bit of manipulation of the 501 first, and this requires a bit of experience and knowledge. In particular, we need to know the conversion into the roman numeral. In this case, 501 = DI. Therefore, DI can be added into the board by ‘insertion’. For example, DI + VIDE = DIVIDE. However, don’t forget that the ‘insertion’ may become very, very complicated if one were to explore too far. For example, DI + VIDE = VIDEDI or VIDIDE or VIDDIE. The point is we simply don’t know where to insert!

    Now it’s up to you folks to figure out which method of addition is the correct one. Most of you are familiar with my style by now. And most of you have been reading about my critical comments here. Whatever the tricks I have up my sleeves, which method of addition do you think is the one I’ve adopted in Q3?

  39. Amazing… it is strange that some people performs their very best at the very last minute. Take the 13th Second for example. She sent me her tembak to Q3 without really knowing the full explanation to it. She did have a partial and logical reason why she chose that answer. Then before I was able to reply, she sent another email — this time with the complete explanation. Apparently she saw it all immediately after she sent of the first email.

    Imagine working on the question for a whole week and still failed to see what’s glaringly there all the time. And then suddenly, at the very last minute, BANG!, a perfect hit!

    Congratulations, the 13th Second!

  40. But unfortunately, for ther rest of you who’re still trying, the 13th Second didn’t get much help from my so-called hints up there.

    It’s just that sudden — almost magical — idea that comes to you when you think it’s impossible to solve this question!

  41. So perhaps a bit of interview…

    What do you feel now, the 13th Second? Relieved? Excited? Disappointed because Q was not worth it? Thrilled for seeing it all finally?

  42. Well, folks, when the curtain comes down this evening, I think we are all gonna have some interesting discussions and debates on these 3 questions. Or perhaps only Q2 and Q3!

    What a week this has been, huh? And we have ce5nt to thank for it. He was the one who initially put up the challenge to me to create questions based on such a narrow sector — only 20 boards! Never before had I ever come close to anything like this.

    I hope these questions would not result in me getting black-listed! One of these days, when and if I ever get to clerk a hunt in KL, I hope all of you masters would try me out. My questions are usually very entertaining and fun; honest!

  43. OK, some more help on Q3 I guess…

    Well, the approach of inserting DI into the signboard opens up almost endless possibilities! The possible conbinations would be daunting. From my many comments on here, I think you can guess that this particular approach doesn’t accord well with my style.

    So the addition that we’re looking at must be in the nature of the literal sense, e.g. 1 + 1 = 2. That would be the first step to the solution. Now go figure out where to add; and then what to do after that!

  44. Definitedly thrilled and feeling all’s worth it. Like i’ve mentioned in my email, i personally feel the question is brilliant.

    A new twist… but the equation is right. Hope this can evolve into treasure hunting in the future.

    Strange…literally it was inspiration at the 11th hour (& 13th second)?

  45. Ahhh… I am very glad to get a second endorsement from another master. Actually I’ve got 3 endorsements — the other one from renroc. But he’s worried that he’ll be accused of being biased in his assessment because he managed to cracked the question. Well, renroc, you are not alone now! Thanks masters, glad that you’ve enjoyed my questions.

  46. Hmmm… looks like I’ve been giving too much attention to Q3. Q2 needs a bit of attention too! After all, only 3 correct answers so far. Let’s see, what more help can I provide for Q2?…

    OK, here goes nothing…

    You notice that if you approach the problem from the question, you’d face an uphill task. First, you’d have to know what’s ‘Spearlike weapon’. I suppose if your word power is very good, you wouldn’t have any problem there. But then you’d have to figure out ‘a drawing item’ too. What is it? curtain? oil colours? pencil?

    And talking about the pencil, you notice that there’s the ‘2B’ in “11-2B”. Could that be the drawing item? Moreover there’s that dash which might be interpreted as the thing that “connects to”. But I’m sure some of you saw through me. Being the tricky devil that I am, of course the “11-2B” is not the answer for Q2! I merely mislead you with the ‘drawing item’, that’s all.

    But what I’m getting at is, you’ll find that the possible combinations through this approach could be endless! And you know very well that I don’t do such nonsense! Therefore logic will tell you that there must be a better approach to the problem.

    The trick is to approach the solution from the signboards! Yes, you need to work your way backwards! Now go and figure out how this is possible; and you will see how easy it can become!

  47. An interesting SMS has just reached me, and I thought perhaps it’s a good idea to share with you all. This is regarding Q3.

    The essence of the SMS is on whether the calculation leading up to the solution of Q3 involves complex formulae.

    My simple answer is NO. I’ve said here many times before, I’d always like to be fair when I set questions. To expect specific knowledge in mathematical formulae would be unfair, especially since I know that maths is almost everyone’s weakness! I should know, because I was teaching maths and science for more than three years many years ago! Well, except for some very, very famous ratio like the pi, which is 3.142.

    Let me remind everyone again. My questions are always about something very basic and simple. Most, if not all, would already have the basic knowledge to solve the questions. And even if they don’t have that knowledge, it is often quite easy to get the information. The difficulty lies in the tricks behind those questions. And I am a firm believer that that should be the basic requirement for a good treasure hunt question.

    So as far as Q3 is concerned, if there is any addition or substraction to be done, please be assured that they are very basic type of calculations.

  48. Well, it seems we have reached the end of the road, folks! In a short while I’ll send the much awaited answers/explanations to ckloh.

    ckloh, all eyes are on you now, my friend! They are dying of curiosity! Pleaaaasee relieve them of their misery quick!

  49. OK, done! Prepare your shaving blades! We’re gonna have a ball tonight! Hmm… having a bath first… and I’ll be back!

  50. OK, now that the answers have been posted, let me publish some parts of the debate 2R1I and I have had through emails. That should save a lot of time. Then we can continue debating or discussing here. I shall deal with Q3 first. Then later we’ll get to Q2.

    Email from 2R1I to ckoh (after given answer of Q3):

    “Q3. Merely reading the surface of your explanation, I would have considered it to be a good question. But when I read deeper into the explanation, I find that it has some holes that requires patching. You intend that DI be added (included) to the signboard to form DIVA’s. Note that this “added” here means included and not a mathematical “addition”. So in my opinion, you cannot use D – I + III – A to form D – IV – A because you are putting the 2 words together and not mathematically adding them together.”

    ckoh’s reply to above:

    “If for example, we have something like this: 10 Enterprise. And I tell you to ‘add’ 5. You can do it this way: 10 Enterprise 5 (this would be the charade approach). Or you can also do it this way: 15 Enterprise (in this case, the numbers are added without disturbing the ‘Enterprise’).

    We have 501 to be added to 3, not disturbing that (A’s).

    501 + Three A’s = (501 + 3) A’s = (504) A’s = DIV A’s”

    2R1I reply to above:

    “When the question is completely setup about numbers, I am ok with doing the mathematical computation. Loved your “Gross” question in the Sutera Hunt. But if the fodder consists both letters and numbers, I think it is incorrect to interpret “adding” as “mathematical addition” although it is intended to mean “inserting”.

    DI insert to III AS = DIIIIAS not DIVAS”

    OK, now let’s open the floor to the audience for comments. Anybody?

  51. OK, now the debate on Q2…

    2R1I’s email after explanation of Q2:

    “Ignoring that it is a DJ question, I still don’t think your question is fair and solvable.

    (1) You are playing on a “name” that first needs to be broken as it is not found on the signboard. “Spearlike” and “drawing items” yields hundreds of possibilities I would presume. What are the chances that the reader is able to match lance to lot to yield what you want? 1 in a 1000?
    (2) There are no clues in your question to link it to the answer. Without first “knowing” that you wanted Lancelot, there is no chance for the solver.
    (3) I have never been a fan of “association” especially on General Knowledge. If I had to do it, I would use “for example” eg. “First Knight for example” to inform readers that I am testing their knowledge in a specific sector and to inform readers that the character I wanted is one of many that fit in that sector.

    eg. Ferguson for example = Knight (acceptable)
    Ferguson = Knight (not acceptable)
    The latter is not acceptable as Ferguson is not a direct definition of a Knight but is just an example of one. Notice the difference?”

    ckoh’s reply to above:

    “Question (sign board): First KnightAnswer (on question sheet): LANCELOT

    Except that in this case, it’s NOT Lancelot that’s given to the solver — and that’s the problem, because the solver would have to work out the question to get that Lancelot first…

    As a cryptic problem, I totally agree with you; there’s hardly any chance to solve the question. But here is a problem of treasure hunt where sometimes you MUST know the answer first and then work your way backwards. That “2140” of yours is a very good example. There’s just no way that the solver can get the answer unless he is there seeing the board and guess one by one which is the required one. Then he’ll need to work his way backwards to arrive at the solution. “2140” standing on its own means hardly anything at all!

    What I’m saying, here we have only 20 boards; one of them is the answer. Yes, in this rare occasion, I’d expect the solver to work their way backwards! I don’t normally do that, but as I said, I had no choice because otherwise all the answers would have been plain sailing! How many boards were there in that “2140” sector? I’m sure many more than 20?…

    Still, the fact remains: how would the solver know where to go to with simply “2140” or “ELIAM”? What’s the chances that they can get anywhere at all? The plain answer is that they’ll get no where! They will only get somewhere IF, and only IF, they look at the possible answers and work their way backwards. There is just no way that I can expect the solver to get LANCELOT — not from the spearlike weapon and drawing item. They can of course use the trial-and-error approach, which you’ve rightly said could yield so many possibilities. But to hit Lancelot, nah… it’s far-fetched. The only real chance to arrive at the answer is therefore for the solver to see MINX first and then hope to figure out why or how it can fit 2140; or see YONEX and then connect it to ELIAM; and yes, see FIRST KNIGHT first and then figure out Lancelot (which is then connected to spearlike/drawing item).

    2R1I’s reply to above:

    “Just keep in mind for DJ questions, it will already be a challenge in itself for the readers to identify a DJ question from a normal question (while staring at 1000 signs in a typical sector). The CoC should not burden the reader with having to decipher to 2nd level a DJ question. DJ questions (answers actually) should be direct and to the point – the challenge should be to figure out what question can result in the direct answer provided. That is the message I was trying to put across.”

    ckoh’s reply to above:

    “I understand perfectly your objection. And you know that I will be the first to object based on the same arguments too. Yes, in a situation of 1000 signboards (as probably would be the case in an actual hunt), truly a ‘second level’ question like FIRST KNIGHT –> LANCELOT –> spearlike/drawing item would be rather too harsh and even unfair. It’s just that for THIS particular situation in which only 20 boards available, perhaps it is an exception, that’s all I’m saying. You yourself experienced my PIPES –> PEPSI TWIST, which was direct. Besides, the time available is a lot more when compared to normal hunting time which is perhaps 10-20 mins at most for each question.”

    Comments anyone?

  52. Oh yes, I forgot to mention that the 3 masters who cracked Q2 all did it by figuring out “FIRST KNIGHT = LANCELOT” first. After that they went on to confirm the “spearlike weapon” and “drawing item” from the clue, just as I had intended.

    It is therefore proven that given the timeframe, and limited choices of answers (20 boards), it’s reasonable to expect the solver to figure out this DJ.

    However, I’m a bit sad that claire failed in Q2. I hinted to ce5nt that it’s a DJ much earlier, when I said pink, Dr Clue, ce5nt and claire together would be able to solve Q2. It’s because claire was the one who introduced a ‘second level’ DJ here with her impressive CHICKEN CHOP question. At that time, I was so excited that I’ve learned a new idea here. It’s just that when I did Q2, I twisted it a bit!

    When I sent claire the explanation, this was a part of her reply to me:

    “… it’s kinda disheartening not to get Q2 coz it’s a question I had a shot at. But don’t know where my mind went to… out of the milky way!!

    The explanation’s simple, question’s good…but I went astray…went too complicated, brought in maths also…and brain ended up like soggy noodles.

    So depressing.”

  53. So claire, Bobby Fischer would say, “play the board, not the opponent.” Of course, Fischer was the World Champion in chess. But the lesson is similar here.

    You tried so much to read ME. Because I mentioned before I like to include maths in my questions, you tried to force maths into Q2!

    Which means probably I should refrain from giving mathematical questions on 26 August… hehehe. So my Sabahan comrades who’re reading this, no maths questions ah!!… but that’s not a promise, I might just change my mind at the last minute!

  54. Still no takers? Still shell-shocked from the revelation? Well, I hope you people will snap out of it soon. Who knows, when I wake up tomorrow morning, there would be some debates on.

    I’m going to sleep with a pleasant feeling that all my questions were successfully answered — again. The previous Encore questions were also all successfully answered.

    May I thank RR for letting me have the honour to conjure up some puzzles for the bloggers. I’m sure we’ve had some fun. Goodnight folks!

  55. Good morning, folks! Well, it seems that we’re not gonna have that big debate after all. Phew…

    Just to share with you something that I’ve learned from the masters here. I mentioned earlier that the 3 masters who solved Q2 all did it because they saw FIRST KNIGHT = LANCELOT first, and then went to confirm the rest.

    But how the 2 masters successfully arrived at Q3 was even more interesting. renroc got the idea simply from the comments by 2R1I and myself. I thought there’s nothing in those comments that would have helped the solver. But to a master like renroc, that was all that was need to narrow down his search substantially. And it was from there that he finally hit the target.

    renroc was working on some other means of adding back that 501 into the signboards. And as I’ve said earlier, if you’re adopting the wrong approach, you’d end up with so many possibilities — not my style. Always try the simplest and most logical way first. You can’t get any simpler than 501 + 3 = 504!

    But I am even more impressed with how the 13th Second got the answer. In fact, I didn’t expect anyone to have noticed my very, very indirect clue. How detailed she is! You see, of all the possible answers on the 20 boards, only THREE A’S has the apostrophe s (‘s) in it. It is the only one that can fit the “owned by…” It was mainly why master 13th Second centred on that particular board… how detailed she is…

    These are small portions of our emails to each other…

    “Not going to waste my shot, so here’s my tembak for Q3: Three A’s.

    This is the only signboard with an apostrophe s (‘s), which fits the “owned by”. One of the three As may…”

    (This was in her first email, before she figured the full explanation)

    ckoh’s reply to above:

    “Yes, that’s exactly my point! I always try to provide alternative possibilities for solvers to find other ways to arrive at the answers. Indeed that apostrophe s is the only one that fits the “owned by”. It provides a very good target for the solvers. It is a logical starting point to sort out the tricks behind the question!”

    You see how a very sharp eye can do wonders in treasure hunt. How nice if we can sit in the car while they hunt. Then we’ll get to see them in action and learn a whole lot of things!

  56. Hmmm…simplifying ckoh & 2R&I’s comments on Q3:

    ckoh’s version is doing a simple maths that flows in a sentence, something like:
    10 apples less 2 gives you 8 apples.
    Therefore, 504A less 501 gives you 3A.
    Note that the mathematical equation is perfectly right when worded in a sentence

    Whereas 2R&I’s version is doing “pure” maths ie.
    504A – 501 = ? (this equation has no solution)
    unless it’s worded such: 504A – 510A = 3A

    My opinion is, since we are attempting a cryptic riddle here rather than solving a Maths problem, I can pretty much accept ckoh’s version. Wonder what others think…

  57. forgot to mention ….

    ckoh …i’ve have whole-heartedly enjoyed all your 3Qs (i’m sure the others too), which I think were very well crafted, each with it’s own trick. The way you presented them was so much fun… the teasers, commentaries, small hints, big hints and all. May we have another Encore from you (trying my luck here like ce5nt)? I’m sure there’s lots more in your bag of tricks!

  58. Hence the poem.


  60. Owned by a vocalist, but for the lack of 501.

    As per SMS yesterday, I thought Q3 was brilliant. Let me break this way,

    Technique involved:
    1. Owned by a vocalist = definition
    2. Unusual addition to the answer (501+3A’s=504A’s)
    3. Simple Roman Numeral conversion (504 = DIVA’S)

    We might took a lot of time to do the above task, but from item 1,2 and 3 only item 2 is considered advanced solving techniques. The rest is just, basic solving techniqes. So, I can accept this, since this is cryptic riddle solving, I would say this is brilliant. Brilliant because ckoh introduce something different, and it is very solvable, just that our mind don’t work that way. Kudos!

  61. On my opinion, no matter how many clues or how little signboard are given, a clues should have 1 advanced technique solving method and maximum 2 if the crafter put it in a very fantastic approach.

    we have tried on crafting riddle previously, where we used the below techniques,
    1) charade (explain how = describe, somebody simple = sb)
    2) deletion techniques (describe – sb)
    3) double jeopardy (mixed rice)

    On the above mixed rice clues, we used two advanced solving techniques, charade and double jeopardy, and we got such a shaving. I have been told by ckoh, human mind’s don’t work this way, when a few of difficult techniques involved, it will lead tons of possibilities. I even suggested, if we have signboard to workback, it might be fairer, which ckoh thought it doesn’t help.

    Saying this, I am surprised ckoh come out with his Q2. To me, it have no much difference from the mixed rice clues, and to me it is even more difficult involving much more techniques. The only different is he has 20 signboards for solver to workback. And we don’t. Let me continued on ckoh’s Q2 below.

  62. ckoh’s Q2:
    Spearlike weapon connected to a drawing item?

    1) Double jeopardy (First Knight = Lancelot)
    2) Knowledge (First Knight = Lancelot)
    3) Charade (Spearlike weapon = lance, drawing item = lot)
    4) Cryptic crossword vocabulary (lance)
    5) Red herring (2B)

    On the above items, 1 and 3 are the advanced solving techniques. We used the same concept, and got such a shaving by ckoh itself.

    And he apply back the same solving techniques add up with the need of knowledge skills, cryptic crossword vocabulary and somemore red herring.

    If you see this breakdown, and if the above mixed rice is not possiblle to be solved, I don’t think Q2 is possible to solve at all.

    A single clue that involved double jeopardy, charade, general knowledge, crytic crossword vocabulary and red herring, I afraid there is a limit in human mind.

    It is true in hunt, we have less time, but what I learn also, in the blog we are only alone, 1 person mind. In hunt we have 4 people mind, which can segregate all the task involved.

  63. Yes, the 13th Second, that’s pretty much the idea behind the debate, I think.

    Purely from the mathematical point of view, it is wrong to say, 501 + 3A = 504A. And I can’t bear the thought that I’d create such a WRONG equation! I would hate myself for that! No, in Q3 we have a totally different situation.

    What I’m saying, the “Three” and the “A’s” are two WORDS found on a single signboard. They are separated from each other on the board. I am treating these two words independently.

    If, for example we have a signboard with “99 Superstore”, would it be acceptable to set a question like this:

    Q) One more to a hundred.

    The idea is to do the maths on that “99” alone, without disturbing the “Superstore”. We discussed at length on the topic of questions relating to only one word from a multi-worded signboards before.

    In the Sutera Hunt, I did a mathematical question — in fact, the one 2R1I quoted — one another calculation. The signboard was “Jalan Lapan Belas”. The calculation (which was a basic maths) involved only the “Lapan Belas” part of the board, not disturbing the “Jalan”. But of course, in the question, I gave additional clue to cover Jalan, just in case there are many other “18” within that sector!

    So in the present case, would it be acceptable to do the maths on the “three” only if the board was “THREE ASTRONAUTS”? If you think it is OK to do so, then start reducing the letters in “ASTRONAUTS” one by one from the ending “S”. Very soon, you will tell yourself that it is OK to do the maths on “Three” only for the board “Three A’s”.

  64. Wow! what a comparison, ckloh! OK, let’s do the comparison then!

    In the case of MIXED RICE, you had endless possibilities dealing from the question. And you practically had similar amount of possibilities from the possible choices also. Both approaches were with endless possibilities.

    In the case of FIRST KNIGHT, you’d have MANY possible combinations if you approach from the question. I said many, because actually there are not so many possibilities for SPEARLIKE WEAPON. Give me as many as possible, an item that you know which may fit spearlike weapon, and I will give you back one possibility for EXPLAIN HOW. Fair enough?

    But if you approach Q3 from the signboards, you only have 20 possibilities. I am sure there are many more food and beverage items that can fit the (9 letters).

    OK, let me post this first… and I will continue…

  65. “If you see this breakdown, and if the above mixed rice is not possiblle to be solved, I don’t think Q2 is possible to solve at all.”

    by ckloh, commenting on Q2 Encore II.

    Perhaps you’ve been missing the many posts over the last few days. The undisputed fact is that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE solved MIXED RICE; whereas 3 people solved my FIRST KNIGHT.

    As I said before, I don’t care how much you want to twist, turn and mould your clue. But in the end the clue must be capable of logical analysis to arrive at the solution.

  66. ckoh:
    Q2 uses a good ploy. But I am struggling with understanding that First Knight is Lancelot? Is that a fact? He is the first Knight? (nothing in Wikipedia about this).

    While the soft tip should not be required to solve a clue, but since it was given, it deserves some attention for the sake of education.

    FIRST is the device in this case. And so the solution would be K,King, Kilo, and the likes of it. LANCELOT does not fit as a DJ solution.

    And 2R1I is right when he said that it is not correct to take the “solution” to another level (as you have done here) in a DJ unless the solution, in my opinion, results in another DJ – a situation that I would term as a NESTED DJ.

    (even this does not go well in 2R1I’s books – I have often used this in our own “training” and always gets those rebuttals).

    I would encourage you to try a few more DJs – you are getting closer to understanding the finer art of it!

    I have commented on Q3 in my email already … and you can see the 13th second shares the line of thought as I had. And mathematical logic and verbal logic often do not agree in some circumstances – Q3 is one of them.

    2R1I may remember the debate we had about 7 eleven being 77. It all depended on how one chooses to read the two numbers e..g 7 by 11 or 7 and (plus) 11 or 7 from (as in distanced from) 11?

    It does not matter if things are not perfect – the discussions are all worth it.

    Thank you for accepting the challenge – play it again – or shall I say, enCORe?

  67. The legend of King Arthur, Camelot and the 12 Knights of the Round Table is so famous. It has been told and re-told over so many generations in so many versions and many languages. It is an evergreen. Lancelot was the best of the 12 knights. He was the number one! King Arthur trusted him the most. Unfortunately, of all the people, he fell in love with Guinevere, the queen! If you didn’t know that legend, I can’t help you. All I can say is to read a bit more.

    will continue…

  68. Ckoh, no matter how is it, ENCORE!! I have already invited you previously in my email, and would invite you again, ENCORE!!

  69. ckoh,

    As I mentioned before, I agree Mixed RIce is not solvable as AD suggested, if only signboards are given working from the back, it is solvable.

    And you told me that even signboards are given it is not solvable.

    I agree that Mixed Rice involved too many advanced techniques and possiblities. I admit defeat. But if I have luxury of signboard given like you,

    1) Yong Tow Foo
    2) Char Kuey Tiaow
    3) Nasi Lemak
    4) Mixed Rice
    5) Nasi Beriyani
    and etc.

    I am sure the people that can solve MIXED RICE is more than FIRST KNIGHT.

  70. Let be fair ckoh, you think which one is more solvable?

    Explain how to tet go of somebody simple.
    1) Yong Tow Foo
    2) Char Kuey Tiaow
    3) Nasi Lemak
    4) Mixed Rice
    5) Nasi Beriyani

    Spearlike weapon connected to a drawing item?
    1) First Knight
    2) CVS Marketing
    3) Reload Coupon
    4) Dobi
    5) Jason

    MIXED RICE range of answers have a common DJ indicator mix, and unfortunately First Knight actually in DJ it means K.

    Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying MIXED RICE is a good question, this question needs two advanced solving techniques, so it is not so good.

    I am saying if MIXED RICE is not a fair question, so did FIRST KNIGHT. If we can revert the time and post the same two questions at the same time, I am sure more people will get MIXED RICE than FIRST KNIGHT.

  71. Now where were we?… ah yes, Lancelot. Well, the legend is that Lancelot was the no one knight and most trusted by King Arthur.

    Most of the stories centred around King Arthur himself and Lancelot. So we only get to know Lancelot from the eyes of the King. But a few versions are from the point of view of Lancelot, i.e. from the point of view of the First Knight. I’m still searching, but perhaps this can be of some help.


    This story is from the point of view of Lancelot. Of course there are many versions of the legend (Most legends are like that).

  72. I am really sorry ckoh, to compare one of your most hated question to your own question. Don’t get offended.

  73. ckloh, I think you are trying to venture into hypothetical grounds now.

    IF you have only few signboards; IF this and IF that; IF like this and IF like that. Then there is no point of comparison! I commented on MIXED RICE as it was — NOT with all those IFs!

    And regarding the ‘common DJ indicator’ as you’ve put it, I’d like to go into that shortly.

    On whether MIXED RICE or FIRST KNIGHT is a good question or not, I would refrain from voting. I can’t! I am not qualified to vote. I’ll leave that to the rest of the bloggers.

    OK, I’ll post this.. and continue on your ‘common DJ indicator’…

  74. Huh? most hated question?… how’s that?

  75. “MIXED RICE range of answers have a common DJ indicator mix, and unfortunately First Knight actually in DJ it means K.”

    — by ckloh

    “common DJ indicator”:
    That is interesting. When you say ‘common’ what exactly is ‘common’? So you consider a DJ question based on the theme of ANAGRAM to be common? Is that what you are saying now?

    We are all well-versed with so many types of tricks in the hunting scene. Let’s mention some of them here. We have DEFINITIONS, ANAGRAMS, CONTAINERS, INITIALS, REVERSALS etc.

    Just because claire created DJs based on anagrams, it doesn’t mean that only anagrams are allowable for DJ, ckloh. You must be more artistic and imaginative than that!

    You’ll remember ce5nt relating his experience with a DJ based on the CONTAINERS. Q) LL A) MIDVALLEY. Who says we can’t expand the idea to DEFINITIONS too? Why can’t we solve the question based on FIRST KNIGHT = LANCELOT? Think about it.

  76. “…and unfortunately First Knight actually in DJ it means K.”

    — by ckloh

    Says who? Why must ‘First’ be an initial indicator only? Why can’t ‘First’ take its literal meaning, as in the number one? We’ve had this discussion before. Why can’t ‘perhaps’ mean perhaps? Why must ‘perhaps’ mean only anagram indicator? Give me a good reason, and I might just agree with you.

  77. “If we can revert the time and post the same two questions at the same time, I am sure more people will get MIXED RICE than FIRST KNIGHT.”

    — by ckloh

    Although 3 masters managed to solve FIRST KNIGHT, ckloh is apparently saying that if both these questions are published together and given the same timeframe, more people will get MIXED RICE rather than FIRST KNIGHT.

    Let’s have a vote from the bloggers — both the CKs are disqualified. Let’s see how many think MIXED RICE is more solvable than FIRST KNIGHT.

  78. DJ starts here in KL possible with the MIDVALLEY, MID is the indicator of VALLEY, answer is LL. So, since then DJ evolved that DJ need an indiactor, I quoted ce5nt, DJ need a device. It is not a rule, but it is base on precedence.

    So, DJ evolved to the extent like Sweet Heart = e or wee, Heart is the indicator to take the centre. Most of the time is anagram, but of couse indicator like Heart, First, Back, or even Odd and etc. needed for all the DJ questions since then.

    But the fact is all DJ until now is with a device, indicator. If First Knight, the common one will mean K or Kilo or King.

    However, admire your creativity again, you introduced something new, ‘DJ without a device’. I am all for new ideas, if you notice how I like your Q3.

    But to have a new idea ‘DJ without device’, with addition with so many other technique/tasks discussed earlier, I afraid this is become complicated and not to your style which is simplicity.

  79. DJ is mean for lateral thinking, so you need a device/indicator to tell the solver what to do. What you trying to do is using DJ for a literal thinking, knowledge type. I would say this is something new. Need time for people to accept just like DJ initially and your Q3. However, if the question is just 1 layer as mentioned by 2R1I, I am still think that it is a good idea, but involve another layer/level to me is complicated.

  80. My position has always been the same. I am all for new ideas. And with a bit of imagination and creativity, plus the tricky devil that I am, I can come up with many!

    My argument is that we’ve been dealing with DIFINITIONS as much as ANAGRAMS, REVERSALS etc. I fail to see why DJ can’t be created based on DEFINITIONS too. I know it’s probably new to KL hunters. Hell, it’s now to me too! But how can it be wrong? The only way that is it ‘wrong’, is because it has no precedence!

    I was given to understand that DJs were unheard of until a few years ago. Was it ‘wrong’ when it was first introduced?

    Treasure hunt questions are evolving all the time. I am still trying to come to terms with taking a signboard reflection in a mirror as an answer, but who am I to challenge it if the majority of hunters welcome that idea? I am also not sure I can agree that the question mark (?) can be an anagram indicator, but it has been used before.

    to be continued…

  81. Let’s talk for a bit about my ‘style’, ckloh.

    First of all, I think you’ve misunderstood me. My questions are almost always about something simple in the sense that they require very limited research. Those who’ve hunted in my hunts before will tell you that they hardly ever needed to google up information. And even if they did, most of the time, it was mainly for the purpose of confirming the information that they already know. The knowledge required to crack my questions are always simple. And I maintain that that should be the case.

    But when it comes to the tricks, that’s where I can become outrageously ‘complicated’. The tricks may be totally out of this world!

    In a way, although the trick is normally simple in itself, but I somehow construct the sentence in such a way that it’s very, very difficult to see it! That is the real challenge for lateral thinking. This probably does not accord well to the KL hunters, but I find it more entertaining and worthwhile challenge. At least I would enjoy such hunt questions.

    So, again, I’d repeat, in my opinion, you can twist, turn and mould the question as much as you like. But in the end, a logical mind — step by step — should be able to crack the clue.

  82. Let me requote, I am not saying your DJ type with DEFINITION is wrong, just unusual, no precedence. And it should not called double jeopardy, maybe something else. If it is just 1 layer like 501+3A’s = 504A’s, and just involve a simple Roman conversion later, it is a great question.

    I am saying after being introduced to a new trick again, and need to find out spearlike weapon = LANCE, is complicated for the solver, in a hunt event/question with a team of 1. If after the new trick to not involve LANCE, and minor manipulation, I would say you trick me well again, just like 504A’s.

  83. I wonder…would it have been better if First Knight wasn’t termed as a DJ but instead as a direct Definition (or word sustitution).

    First Knight = LANCELOT

    Don’t see how this is difficult to be accepted. The trick lies in it being on a second level and that’s where the challenge is.

    I believe Qs are evolving all the time to become more complex, and CoCs are always looking for new tricks to outsmart seasoned hunters. I believe Qs like Q2 or LAROMA will be something very normal in future.

  84. Yeah, the DJ confused me, when the soft hint is DJ, I only saw two possible answers, RELOAD COUPON and FIRST KNIGHT. FIRST KNIGHT is K and RELOAD COUPON is anagram of COUPON.

    And I found out HARPOON is a spearlike weapon. So, wonder how COU and HAR fit in the picture. And not realising the DJ that he meant is not normal DJ.

  85. *STOP PRESS*

    (since the focus is here) … may I bring your attention to a new posting by me on the new rules for my 3 Qs for the Virtual Hunt.

  86. OK, now back to ce5nt’s comment.

    Let’s make a comparison…

    LANCELOT DJ (based on definition theme):


    Question (on signboard): FIRST KNIGHT
    Answer (given to solver): LANCELOT

    Except that LANCELOT was not directly given to the solver. LANCELOT was instead given as a riddle!

    claire’s CHICKEN CHOP DJ (based on anagram theme):


    Question (on signboard): CHICKEN CHOP

    Answer (given to solver): NICHE CK

    Except that NICHE CK is not given directly to the solver. NICHE CK is instead given as a riddle.

    Notice that the questions are essentially the same in most respect. They are both indirect DJs. The only difference is that claire’s DJ is based on the ANAGRAM theme, and mine’s based on the DEFINITION theme.

    The real question is, therefore, whether hunters can accept DJs WITHOUT the so-called ‘device’ as ce5nt put it. My personal opinion, the answer should logically be ‘YES’. And I am not saying this because all the big guns are aimed at me now!

    What do you think, master ce5nt? Does it make sense at all?

  87. Well, it doesn’t really bother me, the 13th Second — just as I have replied to 2R1I before this. Even if Q2 does not qualify as a DJ, it is still a valid question anyway.

  88. ckoh:


    To qualify for a DJ the signboard must be a “riddle”.

    FIRST KNIGHT is not a “riddle” nor “a question”.

    If the signboard was “SPEARLIKE WEAPON CONNECTED TO A DRAWING ITEM SDN BHD” and your “question” was


    then yes, that would be a perfect DJ.

    Your question needed “LOT LANCE TRADING PLACES” to be a DJ answer.

    What is happening here is that you have “reversed” the concept of a DJ – which means – we are back to a “normal” question – see my point?

    BTW, I am still puzzled as to why LANCELOT is the FIRST KNIGHT. LANCELOT is KNIGHT – that I can comprehend. If I can reconcile this, then I can say that Q2 is valid.

  89. Sorry, CKOH:
    Just read the rest of the blog after I posted my latest comments. So FIRST KNIGHT was a movie and it featured LANCELOT – and I suppose it was referring Lancelot as the first knight. then I can accept the relevance of Q2.

    And I also just read about the deeper debate about “definition” as another form of DJ.

    My understanding still remains : a definition does not make a DJ. It merely reverts to a definition type of question. That is probably the exception in DJs.

  90. ckoh:
    Here is another way to summarise your Q2.
    It was a case of answering a question with a question : which in normal sense would mean : there is no answer.

  91. ckoh,

    yup, lose the DJ tag and everyone will have no problem accepting that Q2 is an acceptable GK question. In an actual hunt, this would probably qualify as a OFTB question – a GK with a twist.

    Q3 is the one that despite what the others say, I still have problems with:

    Call me a tradionist but I still like my deletion indicators as doing the work of “removal” and not mathematical subtraction.

    lack of = deletion indicator
    DIVAS – DI = VAS = FIVE As (ok)
    DIVAS – DI = (DIV-DI)AS = IIIAS (just doesn’t cut it for me)

    If this can be accepted, I shudder at the thought of the endless possibilities …

    Q: Five without me
    traditional concept = four, iv, fve, lma
    ckoh’s concept = fiive, fove, fiiie, loma, ilima, liima (arrrgh!)

  92. sorry, “traditionist” not “tradionist”.

    Decided to correct it to prevent claire from picking on my spelling mistakes again!

  93. ce5nt,

    Just home from Interact Installation dinner… imagine these kids these day… they have their installation at a posh hotel! I wonder if they know the true meaning of what they’re doing!

    Anyway, based on your latest comments, this is my understanding of your present stand:

    (i) That you now accept FIRST KNIGHT = LANCELOT;

    (ii) that Q2 isn’t a DJ.

    Although I am a bit puzzled with that last comment of yours — that “It was a case of answering a question with a question…” — does that mean Q2 is invalid?

    Perhaps a few years ago, when the first DJ was introduced, some hunters would have said it was invalid also. Because we are answering a question (which is actually an answer) with an answer (which is actually the question). Just reading that line can give you a headache!

    The DJ requires hunters to find the question for a given answer. It may sound strange at first glance, but after a while it might be OK.

    Now I am giving you X and you have to find Y, which agrees with X. Because X = Y. Why should that invalid the search?

    If I give you, say, “KASUT”, and then you are required to spot “SHOE” on the board, would it be OK? Would it be an invalid task because I am asking you a “question for a question”?

    OK, let me rephrase it a bit. I give you “4X-3X”, and you have to spot “Y” on the board. Why? Because X = Y. It is still the same thing, except that you must work on that “4X-3X” first to figure out that it is equal to “X”, which is in turn equal to “Y”.

  94. Oops! yet another master with a different opinion! OK, so you are happier if Q2 is not known as a DJ. Fine I am willing to leave it at that. Never mind what it is called. I will not call it a DJ then.

    Regarding Q3, I find it quite strange that you have that opinion, really. OK, let’s us take this slow and steady, step-by-step.

    Consider this:

    Q) One dozen, but lack of 2.

    Would you accept 10 as the answer?

  95. And by the way, 2R1I,

    “ckoh’s concept = fiive, fove, fiiie, loma, ilima, liima”

    doesn’t agree with what I am doing in Q3.

  96. yes, as highlited below:

    Q: Five without me
    traditional concept = four, iv, fve, lma
    ckoh’s concept = fiive, fove, fiiie, loma, ilima, liima (arrrgh!)

  97. That’s the point I’ve trying to make to you, 2R1I. That’s is exactly what I mean. My answer to your “Five without me” is also “four, iv, fve, lma”!

  98. and why not, since

    five – i = fi(v-i)e = fiive
    five – i = f(i-i)ve = fove
    five – i = f(iv-i)e = fiiie

    and so on ….

  99. That’s why I’m trying to explain to you…. answer that question first…

    Q) One dozen, but lack of 2.

    Would you accept to “10” as the answer?

  100. ckoh, yes like I explained in my email, I’m ok with a math test if everything is in a number context, not when there are a mix of alpha & numeric.

    DIVAS – DI = VAS = FIVE As (ok)
    DIVAS – DI = (DIV-DI)AS = IIIAS (just doesn’t cut it for me)

  101. Fully agreed, IF those two are joined together as one. But not in this case.

    Q) One more to score.

    Would you accept Jalan 19 as the answer?

  102. ckoh, By the way I can understand what you’re trying to achieve, but I just can’t cast my vote accepting this idea, as it will create boundless possibilities … imagine if a perhaps is added to it (intended to be literal but we hunters read as lateral ….. arrrgghhhh!)

  103. And would you accept “19 JALAN” as the answer?

  104. Oh well… it seems this is one question we are not gonna end up in between… hehehehe..

  105. I was just trying to demonstrate something with 19 JALAN. Never mind, I’ve given up hope. Forget about it. Maybe ce5nt or the 13th Sec have better hope tomorrow.

  106. And by the way, best of luck to you tomorrow, 2R1I! It’s time for revenge I guess!

  107. “perhaps”?… where did that come from?

  108. again, numbers & numbers … I’m cool!

    I’m of the opinion that Q3 fails the “therefore” test, used widely in my field.

    D-I-V-A-S are all joined together and you just can’t possibly remove D-I and expect to get D-III-A-S.

  109. Never mind.. I get it… must be getting late!… maybe that lousy chicken chop during dinner… hehehe

  110. Do you see “THREE A’s” as joined together too?

  111. OK, let me widen up the space a bit more, do you see this as joined together too?

    THREE A’s

  112. hmm… didn’t work… interesting thing I just found out here… space doesn’t show after posting…

  113. ckoh, no we can’t possibly exact revenge when we are wearing the “participant” hat! Therefore, “que sera sera” lah.

    Ha! But I may have something brewing in Nov, that one I can speak my lingo (hee hee).

  114. No, I meant revenge for Putrajaya! Surely you want to come back strong again? I would!

  115. Perhaps, but don’t you see it failing the “therefore” test (reverse test in more layman terms).

  116. I know what you meant, que sera sera lah.

  117. By the way, is that the one by Fun Hun Club? Baskaran’s hunt? Whatever it is, good luck to you all. Oh how I envy you people in KL… so many hunts to enjoy!… but how I feel so lucky for not doing the STFOGA

  118. I know what you mean 2R1I, but that’s why I said our debate is not getting anywhere.

    Q) Bukan dia di dalam.

    A) Gano Therapy.

    Because the words NOT HER found within Gano Therapy. Acceptable even if the ‘O’ and the ‘T’ are not connected. DIV A’s, also acceptable, even if the DIV not connected to A’s. I can’t see why we can accept one and not the other.

  119. Fun Hunt People is run by another nice gentleman by the name of Zahrol.

    STFOGA – hmm, that’s an interesting one. And we had (prior) thought that we experienced it all in the world of treasure hunting, boom boom, something new brews up. And from what I hear it will get livelier in the coming weeks. Will keep you informed.

  120. Yeah… been keeping up with news on Mike’s blog. But a bit slow this lately. Mike said it ain’t over till the fat lady sings. Looks like the fat lady should be prepared for a long number, because it ain’t gonna end anytime soon… at least not the way I see it. This is turning into a scandal/fraud which what might be termed STFOGA-gate, huh?

  121. Like I said it is an interesting idea, but since you’re applying mathematics on an argument that includes alphanumerics, i can’t vote for!

    Let me talk to ce5nt and the 13th second first thing tomorrow, and see whether they can convert me into thinking otherwise. One of us will surely keep you updated on our thoughts.

  122. Yes, Zahrol, I’m familiar with that name too. Although I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting him. Seen some of his work and analysed them too. I have to analyse as many as possible because I want to learn and get to know these CoCs. Interesting and would like to try his hunt some day. But he is not very particular about grammar it seems.

    In the Malay language, when the imbuhan ‘di’ is used together with a verb, then it should be attached to that verb. But when ‘di’ is used for some other words, e.g. places, no need to attach.


    But, DI BAWAH, DI ATAS, DI RUMAH etc. (spaced)

  123. I’m sure you have heard of the saying, “masuk kandang kambing, mengembek, masuk kandang kerbau, menguak? Because of the variety of flavours available out in the west, for survival we just have to learn to adapt (hee hee).

    You’re right in pointing out the “DI”. Have been wanting to point the same thing out for sometime now. Seasoned or not, most CoCs make the same mistake of adding “DI” to non-verbs which is wrong like dibawah (hmm, seems like treasure hunt should carry some warning signs: DON’T TRY THIS AT HOME KIDS! COULD BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR GRAMMAR!)

  124. By the way, ckoh, if you’re still up … care to park Q3 aside and share some good places to eat in KK? I probably have 1 lunch, 1 tea, 1 dinner and 1 breakfast to spend in KK next week and would like to hunt for food (recommended places) for a change.

    Lunch – Hakka Fish-paste noodles (where?)
    Tea – Paus (where?)
    Dinner – Seafood (where?)
    Breakfast – What and where?

    Please feel free to recommend anything other than the above. I am game to try anything local (as long as the place is not difficult to find, tee hee).

  125. Wow! Food!… I’m afraid you’re asking the wrong person, 2R1I! Unfortunately I am not such an expert when it comes to food. That’s why I had to struggle with the food court riddles — especially the NASI KANDAR! Luckiy most of the food/beverage in the riddles were VERY common ones.

    1) I really don’t know what is Hakka Fish-paste noodles. I might have unknowingly eaten that before, but I have always been very cincai with food. Or maybe it is known by a different name here. I’ll try to find out.

    2) Paus. Again I am not a big fan of paus. I’ve been told that they have good paus in Foo Phing in Heritage Plaza II. Apparently their paus are so good that they’ve mass-produced and sold them frozen! Almost anyone in the street would know Foo Phing restaurant. But you may find their paus very similar with those in the west, because I was given to understand that they’re from the west also!

    3) Seafood. Well, we have quite a few of them here in KK. But maybe you’ll have to spend a bit more. At any rate, they are easily cheaper than the seafood in KL. The famous ones include:

    New Port View. It’s located at the seafront where the answer “My Album” was (bus stop) in last year’s DBKK’s hunt.

    SEDCO. This is close to my Q1 & Q2 of Sutera Hunt. They have some sort of cultural entertainment etc in a centre stage, mainly for tourists. But the I was told it’s very expensive, can easily reach RM60-RM80 per head.

    DOWISH. Also not my kind of restaurant. But I was told can do lah! If you still have the tulip for the Sutera, DOWISH is located at Tulip No. 70.

    ATLANTIS seafood restaurant. You have a few of these in the city. There is one near the Port View above. Or if you’d like to drive around a bit, there is another at Tulip No. 76 of the Sutera.

    4) Breakfast. Am not sure your taste-buds. If you are keen on dim sum. Foo Phing is again the famous one. But I don’t find it very good. Besides, the long wait during weekends is just too much for me. Once in a while I’d go for wa-tan-ho at E-Siong restaurant, located at Tulip No. 47 of Sutera.

    Well, I am really not a food guy. So I may be missing many more good places here in KK. Perhaps ikan buntal can recommend some too?

  126. The Fish-paste noodles, I ate once. If I am not mistaken, it is in the very beginning in Jalan Tuaran from town, the old road to go Tuaran/Mt Kinabalu.

    Not sure whether you are refering to the same shop, but took a cab last time and the cab told me this is the best in town. Joshua went there last month base on my direction, but he can’t find it, however somewhere around there he found out Mee Tuaran, something special according to him.

    On seafood, I think New Port View is a good choice, haven’t try myself. I have been to the famous one like Port View and Ocean, but Joshua mentioned New Port View is better after trying all three. Or if you really have time to burn, you might even go to Gayang/Salut Seafood, a cheaper one. Basically, you are going to a fish pond/farm to eat the delicacy there. The distance from KK town is more and less like KL go to Klang.

  127. Hello Ckoh, thanks for your food tips. Now that should help take care of my meals during my 1 day + 1 morning stopover in KK.

    We happen to be in the same car with renroc after the hunt and the dicussion about Q3 took place. Just to let you in on the final outcome – no one was converted (hee hee). 2 still thought it was brilliant while 2 sat on the fence (no prizes for associating names to the above). As for me, I will remember to apply the proverb “masuk kandang kambing, mengembek, masuk kandang kerbau, menguak?” the next time I have the privillege to go through your hunt.

    But it was unanimous that, both Q2 & Q3 would not have been solved in a regular hunt with 1001 signboards in a 0.5 km sector. There were just too many levels to it. So we would appreciate you not export the ideas behind these 2 questions to the west (hee hee).

    We were also unison in saying that we have enjoyed some of your fresh ideas (from Sutera hunt and the Bloggers Encore) and look forward to your coming hunts in KK or in our Kampung. So, keep us informed (EARLY) next time you brew someting.

  128. Hello ckloh, thanks for your food tips too.

  129. 2R1I, are you out of your mind!? Do I want to get everyone to boo me? NO THANK YOU!!…. hehehehe.

    There’s just no way I would give such questions in an actual hunt with 1000 boards and 0.5 km sector. I don’t believe anyone would be able to answer those questions in an actual hunt, no matter how brilliant he is!

    No, those questions are strictly for this wonderful blog only, where all you nutcases (and this word ‘NUTCASES’ is not referring to ‘SHELLS’!) have plenty of time to mull over 20 signboards! And can you imagine how far I had to strecth my mind to conjure up Q2 and Q3? The final product looks easy, but trust me, it’s not! It took me almost an hour to set those 3 questions only. Perhaps I should send my bill to RR?… hehehehe.

    About my future hunts, I have finally accepted that the preferences of the majority is still more superior than my own fancy. At the end of the day, I have to reluctantly accept that our standard in KK is still far behind you people in the west. After prolonged consideration, I realised that setting hunts in KK is not about throwing in all my ideas. It serves no purpose if I only succeed in killing the interest! Too many people have told me that I need to slowly lure the crowd and build up the momentum from there. And since too many people share that same opinion, I have to admit defeat!

    Therefore, in the end, I will give ‘reasonable’ questions; but to throw in some of my ideas, perhaps very few of them as bolded questions (I can’t help it, I can’t suppress my crazy ideas!). Maybe that way, I can keep both the regular hunters and the newbies!

  130. ckoh:
    Another conclusion from the “in car” discussion was that we are unanimous that CKOH is the most creative COC on board. We are extremely impressed by your brilliance and we encourage you to continue to fascinate this community with this unique attribute of yours!

  131. Wow! Thanks, masters! But perhaps (and this ‘perhaps’ is not meant as an anagram indicator!) not so soon lah.

    At the moment, I need to spare some of my so-called ‘brilliancies’ to torture some of my Sabahan comrades on 26 August. In fact, I am in the middle of conjuring up another one of my ‘cruel’ tricks right now! An interesting idea! Oh I hate myself for this; it is so simple and yet so damn tricky! Just where the hell did I get all these nonsense? Not too many lah… only a few. Otherwise no one will join my future hunts!

    Unfortunately, I’ve been marked for my peculiar styles. I enjoy the challenge though. They know by now that I will give something to do with playing cards OR maths question OR both. But which one(s)? Where? How?

  132. Saya sokong pendapat awak dalam artikel ni… tapi saya rasa awak mungkin perlu olah kembali supaya lebih menarik.. maaf apapun awak ada idea yang baik.

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