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October 2007 – PLAYROOM

October 1, 2007

Virtual Treasure – cklohtreasure # 1

This luxury wear’s domain ends with half each.

Homepage without odd hyphen makes what I wish.

A Greek sign of resistance makes the mark which a British mole approves of too.

And a shortened drug lord will show you the exact spot.

INSTRUCTIONS:  This is a cyber-treasure, an imitation of ce5ntreasure. The main objective is to find the exact URL and send it to me as your answer. As this is something new, I ought to suggest an approach (you can do it anyway you like of course).

Try solving the clues to determine what the item is, then find the URL or you can work out the URL and then find the item!  After that, email your answer to me.

(Pls send your URL to lohcheekwan@gmail.com with subject line as “cklohtreasure # 1, so I know that it is not a spam. Of course you are most encouraged to include your explanations/thesis).

RIDDLES OPEN from 15 Oct (Mon) to 26 Oct (Fri)

Answer: 

Virtual Treasure – ce5ntreasure # 3

Knowing where it begins will narrow the search for this part dairy product.

Realise firstly, bitterness in the early stages of making this product is quite normal.

A long, long way to run before we say our relationships are formed will get exactly what I want.

From fixing a precious stone to the end of a drafting tool, you will discover.

Their domain which has some authentic finish to it too.

INSTRUCTIONS: 

ce5ntreasures are cyber-treasures. The main objective is to find the exact URL and send it to me as your answer. As this is something new, I ought to suggest an approach (you can do it anyway you like of course).

Try solving the clues to determine what the item is, then find the URL or you can work out the URL and then find the item!  After that, email your answer to me.

Good luck!

(Pls send your URL to ce5nt@yahoo.com with subject line as “ce5ntreasure # 3, so I know that it is not a spam. Of course you are most encouraged to include your explanations/thesis).

NEW CHALLENGE:
You want to find this treasure and bring it to me on flag-off day of the next treasure hunt that you and I participate in? I will welcome it!
(This could be a way to do pre-hunt treasures! Give it out during briefing and then have everyone hURLing through cyberspace for it, the day or few days before!)

RIDDLES OPEN from 1 Oct (Mon) to 13 Oct (Fri)

Answer: http://www.cadbury.com.au/sites/cadbury/index.php?pageId=66

(Cadbury Favourites from Australia)

Explanation:

Knowing where it begins will narrow the search for this part dairy product.

Knowing where it begins : just to get you to start thinking about “where does the clue actually begins” and maybe “which country is the domain or origin of the product?”Part dairy product = this is really a product that has dairy, namely, milk ingredient. Of course, at this stage ; many will start to look at the acrostics : KRAFT – the first letter of each line.
But that was meant to be a decoy … to take you off course into the wrong “WARP” of cyberspace travel.
I understand from some feedback, many went to Holland!


Realise firstly, bitterness in the early stages of making this product is quite normal.

Realise firstly : another acrostic kind of clue to invite solvers to look at the rest of the sentence for BITES.
But again, this was decoy – to try to get those who were not fooled by the first decoy, to still get lost in space.

But it is a fact that the product is bitter at the early stages of production : being made from raw coco – which is bitter.I was told that BITES was a product indeed (Nestle?) …


A long, long way to run before we say our relationships are formed will get you exactly what I want.

A long, long way to run : taken from the 4th verse of the famous DO-RE-MI song : “Fa(r), a long, long way to run”.
In crosswords, it is often referred to as FA instead of FAR.
before = this was meant for smoother reading but it can also help to confirm that FA is definitely before the next clue.we say = sounds like “V”.our = our (unchanged)relationships = tiesare formed = anagram pointer, therefore converts TIES to ITESTherefore, put together : FA+V+OUR+ITES = FAVOURITES.
The product intended.
Those who tried did not have any problems with deciphering this clue – only that they could not link it with which brand.
Except for 2R1I – of course – who was the only one to solve this treasure!
Even then, he had a few seconds of anxiety over the “relations are formed” – momentarily not realising that “are formed” was an anagram pointer.
A quick second email following his first submission was “a stitch in time” to earn the honor of solving it right on time!

From fixing a precious stone to the end of a drafting tool, you will discover .

Fixing = Anagram pointera precious stone = “RUBY” , therefore RUBY becomes BURY.a drafting tool = referring to Computer Aided Design tool, e.g. Autocad , i.e. CAD (acronym).to the end of : place BURY at the end of CAD = CADBURY.
That would be the brand/company.
This clue had been used in a couple of hunts before – but that was way back in the early nineties!
Some masters had to be reminded of it!

Their domain which has some authentic finish to it too.

Their domain = Cadbury’s websitesome authentic = part of AUthentic = AU.
finish to it = placed at the end.
just to confirm that I was referring to the Australian domain of Cadbury, ie. with “au” at the end.So putting all together, you ought to get:“favourites cadbury australia”

and if you google those words – you will have that URL listed as the very first item on your search results.

If you were attempting to guess the website, you would have tried cadbury.com.au and that would have taken you to the site,
and you would have to run through the PRODUCTS pages to look for FAVOURITES.

Savvy?

Well done, again 2R1I and thanks to renroc and 13th second for acknowledging your attempts!
I am sure there are others who were trying it … but since I did not “hear your thoughts” – I will not know for sure.
Thanks for trying if you did.

Virtual Hunt

Location: Lucky Garden 

Below are the possible answers:

01. Restoran Sin Lai Peng
02. F&N@01
03. Yusuf Tomyam Masakan Panas
04. Klinik Haiwan Kanagasabai
05. ADT@04
06. DR@04
07. Kedai Makanan Haiwan T. Asokan Enterprise
08. Science Diet@07
09. Maxs Look Hair Saloon
10. Maran@09
11. Gunting Rambut Laki Laki RM 10
12. RM 10 Hair Cut Mens
13. Metro Driving Academy Cawangan Bangsar
14. Java Room Family Traditional Health Therapy
15. Watts Electrical & Plumbing Co.
16. New York Lite Auto Electrical Service
17. Panther Alarm@16
18. Leko Super Power@16
19. Sweet Appam
20. Alat-alat Sukan Sportsprises79 (Champion)
21. Prince@20
22. Yonex@20
23. Wilson@20
24. Pusat Tuisyen Bangsar Tutorial Centre
25. BTC@24
26. Winson Aquarium
27. mVege
28. RS Accessories Service Sdn. Bhd.
29. Kenn Kenn Auto Accesories@28
30. Protected by Protecs A&A CMS@28
31. Battery@28
32. Air Cond@28
33. Car@28
34. Service@28
35. JS68@28
36. RSN1@28
37. Water Hydrant
38. Right Here!@37
39. Ice Cold R.O. Water@37
40. Restoran Chef Low
41. MBF@40
42. Cards@40
43. Enak@40
44. Oasis Beauty and Spa
45. Syarikat Chuan Ann Tayar dan Bateri Sdn Bhd
46. Good Year@45
47. Fulda@45
48. Kelly Tyres@45
49. Servitekar@45
50. Pusat Rawatan Kecantikan Royal Jelly Bio Cos
51. Bio Jelly Cosmetic (M) Sdn. Bhd.@50
52. Hasil Kajian Dari Makmal@50
53. Rizal Properties
54. Bangsar Electrical & Plumbing Sdn. Bhd.
55. BEP@54
56. Restoran Syed
57. Bukhara Briyani@56
58. Nasi Kandar@56
59. Tom Yam@56
60. Satay@56
61. Western Food@56
62. Outdoor Catering@56
63. 24 Jam@56
64. TMC Staff Entrance & Receiving Area
65. Teng Mini Market Centre Sdn. Bhd.
66. TMC@65
67. Farmasi Guardian
68. Dimiliki oleh: GCH Retail (M) Sdn. Bhd.@67
69. Happy Homes Realty Sdn. Bhd.
70. M.C. Tan & Co.
71. Pesuruhjaya Sumpah
72. Commisioner For Oath
73. Unicity Service Centre
74. Cosway
75. C K Tan Trading@74
76. Kedai Buku Book X-Change Sdn. Bhd.
77. Kumon
78. Kedai Persolekan Nayna
79. Tukang Jahit Eastern Taylor
80. Kedai Gunting Rambut Lucky Star

Remember to includes details as at below:

1. Virtual Hunt Riddle

2. Email address to post the answer.   Please send your riddles to riddleqa@gmail.com.Your riddles will be posted between Friday, 9 pm to Saturday 9 am, every weeks for the month.

Please review the answers in this column too, on the following Friday, 9 pm to Sunday 9 am.

Q1

You might see it on turkish sand.

Please email the answers to abdul_hadi@silterra.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 5 Oct (Fri) to 12 Oct (Fri)

by Hadi

Answer: Kumon

(Please refer to comment on October 13th, 2007 at 2:04 am)

Q2

A Carolina Tight End with distress or she ran behind to get the sign!.

Please email the answers to abdul_hadi@silterra.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 5 Oct (Fri) to 12 Oct (Fri)

by Hadi

Answer: Panther Alarm@16

(Please refer to comment on October 13th, 2007 at 2:04 am)

Q3

The oily slime object lost 100 off its tail, confused?

Please email the answers to abdul_hadi@silterra.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 5 Oct (Fri) to 12 Oct (Fri)

by Hadi

Answer: Bio Jelly Cosmetic (M) Sdn. Bhd.@50

(Please refer to comment on October 13th, 2007 at 2:05 am)

Q4

Gulpers & Sago, Heroes has it.

Please email the answers to abdul_hadi@silterra.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 5 Oct (Fri) to 12 Oct (Fri)

by Hadi

Answer: Leko Super Power@16

(Please refer to comment on October 13th, 2007 at 2:05 am)

Q5

Lob reduces unusual effect into place.

Please email the answers to lohcheekwan@gmail.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 5 Oct (Fri) to 12 Oct (Fri)

by ckloh creations (Thank you to ce5nt as he had a preview of it just to help me to fine tune it a little bit.)

Answer: Maran

(Please refer to comment on ckloh October 13th, 2007 at 11:06 am)

Q6

When evenly taken out from a few, it becomes a mark of a vehicle part.

Please email the answers to lohcheekwan@gmail.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 12 Oct (Fri) to 19 Oct (Fri)

by ckloh creations

Answer: 47. Fulda@45

(Please refer to comment on ckloh October 20th, 2007 at 9:14 am)

Q7

Some superhuman mutation success before rune wears down superhuman mutation authority.

Please email the answers to lohcheekwan@gmail.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 12 Oct (Fri) to 19 Oct (Fri)

by ckloh creations

Answer: 71. Pesuruhjaya Sumpah

(Please refer to comment on ckloh October 20th, 2007 at 9:14 am)

Q8

Decoration without hotel interior makes cooler.

Please email the answers to lohcheekwan@gmail.com

RIDDLES OPEN from 12 Oct (Fri) to 19 Oct (Fri)

by ckloh creations

Answer: 32. Air Cond@28

(Please refer to comment on ckloh October 20th, 2007 at 9:14 am)

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89 comments

  1. ce5nt…are you trying to get another year’s supply of those disposable shavers again? 😉 Hahaha… don’t worry, no hints given out for virtual treasure 3.


  2. CE5NTREASURE # 3 : IMPORTANT NOTICE!
    The first lines has a tiny bit of cosmetic touch-up. Very necessary – so as not to spoil your fun!
    So for your convenience here is the whole question repeated here:

    Knowing where it begins will narrow the search for this part dairy product.
    Realise firstly, bitterness in the early stages of making this product is quite normal.
    A long, long way to run before we say our relationships are formed will get exactly what I want.
    From fixing a precious stone to the end of a drafting tool, you will discover.
    Their domain which has some authentic finish to it too.


  3. claire:
    I am still on shaver no.1 … really going to last me long, long time! By saying you have not given out any hints – you have!


  4. EARLY DAYS! BUT CE5NTREASURE # 3 HAS BEEN SOLVED!
    It was a wonderful feeling clicking on the URL from 2R1L’s email and have the correct answer paint steadily across my PC screen! Ecstatic! Well done, Roman! 1st to hURL in the answer!


  5. Whoops!!! I’m so sorry ce5nt! (Hehehe…my trick worked!) umm..i’m really sorry. Didn’t mean to give out any hints.


  6. NO SALTED EGG!
    No “harm done”, claire. Only 2R1I will know what we mean! (We are good at confusing the field, aren’t we?)


  7. Hahahahaha!!! I almost fell off my chair laughing ce5nt!


  8. What the heck..let me try lah submit some questions. Been looking into your riddle/hunt thingie, well.. to be good in t’hunts, one must try to create hunt questions. Thus..i am trying. hope this helps.

    RIDDLES OPEN from 1 Oct (Mon) to 13 Oct (Fri)

    Virtual Hunt

    1) You might see it on turkish sand.

    2) A Carolina Tight End with distress or she ran behind to get the sign!.

    3) That oily slime object lost 100 off its tail, confused?

    4) Gulpers & Sago , Heroes has it.

    email : abdul_hadi@silterra.com with the answers. I will post the answers after the virtual hunt is close with explanation. My mind/thinking might be different, thus comment of quality of questions/answers are appreciated for further improvement.

    Thanks

    -Hadi


  9. Welcome Hadi!

    Good to see new contributor. If you want fair comments on quality of questions/answers, you are certainly in the right place. There is a few gurus here, where we benefit alot from their comments.

    It is good for improvement of all. Hope more to come from you.


  10. CK loh solved #1….. easy huh.. 🙂


  11. SL Chin solved #3
    ckoh solved #1

    Many comments given for Q1/Q2. Appreciate the feedback! Will try to improve in the future.

    Due to Raya holidays, i will post the answer at Friday Evening, but i won’t be able to see the blog/online during the weekend/holidays!.

    Thanks!
    Regards
    -Hadi


  12. Like I said, hadi, the idea is that the questions/clues should be challenging in terms of lateral thinking; not googling skills.

    Of course there are some questions involving general knowledge. But be sure that that knowledge is really “general”, i.e. many people (but not necessarily all) would know it.

    For example, I did not know about NASI KANDAR, but I can accept the question because apparently many people know what that is! On the other hand, I do not accept the “SAIL = CROSSJACK” question, because I am convinced that very, very few people have that knowledge!

    When setting hunt questions, I am always guided by the principle of fairness to the solvers. The basic ingredients required to solve the question should be, well, BASIC. For example, if there are calculations involved, then it should be simple calculations — not something like calculus/defrentiation that would require complex formulae.

    Whenever there is a need to google up information to solve the question, then the setter should consider again if it’s really a good idea to set such a question.

    Apparently, when treasure hunting was first introduced in Malaysia decades ago, the questions were mainly knowledge-based, or observation skills. Hunters were required to count lamp posts etc. But over the years, questions have evolved in the direction of “lateral thinking”.

    These are, however, my own opinion and guide when I set questions/clues. Therefore, other CoCs may disagree!

    Since you have mentioned “styles”, hadi, we will discuss further after you have revealed the answers to your questions. But for the moment, let me just say that I disagree with any attempt to equate “styles” with common themes in hunt questions. No matter what your styles are, anagrams should always be anagrams; containers should always be containers; reversals should always be reversals etc. If one were to use “perhaps” or “confused” to indicate anagrams, then I am willing to accept it. But if one were to use, say, “return” to indicate anagrams on the strength of “this is my style”, then I am afraid that I will not accept it!


  13. Wow, that is strange… Yesterday afternoon, when I posted the above, an error message appeared on my screen. I tried to post again and again a few more times, but the same thing happened. So in the end, I gave up. And now I see my post got through after all!


  14. I think what happen is when you post for the first time it go through. Of course, when you post for the second time and forth, the system tell you that you can’t do that, duplicated post.


  15. I think what happen is when you post for the first time it go through. Of course, when you post for the second time and forth, the system tell you that you can’t do that, duplicated post.


  16. Ahh… can’t double post the same comment… like what you have just done, eh?


  17. oops, not sure myself how it work. Perhaps, I did a refresh. Nevermind.


  18. test


  19. Selamat Hari Raya / Happy Holidays.

    A Quick Answers for my ‘1st’ set of Q.

    1)You might see it on turkish sand.
    You might see it – See it = Anagram
    Turkish Sand – Kum
    On + Kum = Kumon.

    Comments given – Too many redundant words (You might see it). What i mean on this is, you might see it if you anagram it, if you don’t, you can’t see it. 2 people tried it correctly if i am not mistaken.
    Not common language – Turkish.
    My comment – Fair game, as already given that you must find it in turkish. No rule saying that this virtual hunt must only follow masters style of thinking or do’s and don’t 🙂
    If i am not mistaken – 2 people got this right (out of 4 attempts)

    2) A Carolina Tight End with distress or she ran behind to get the sign!.
    A – Singular,
    Caroline Tight End – NFL Player, A carolina player is also refered to as a panther (Caroline Panthers).
    With Distress – Alarm.
    Thus – Panther Alarm
    – Only 1 person attempted and correct. You know who u are 🙂

    Or – She ran behind to get the sign
    She – Her
    Ran behind – Pant ; Pant+Her = Panter
    Get the sign (Somehow some thesaurus shows sign as ALARM). – Add Alarm.

    Comments on this Q
    – How would i know tight end is related to NFL – OK, this might not be a common sport for you, but for some, it is. Thus this question will help to increase your common knowledge. I hope 🙂
    – The 2nd part might be not soooo clear… Well… sorry. I thought by putting only 1 part would be difficult for some


  20. 3) That oily slime object lost 100 off its tail, confused?
    – That = To show that the answer is after this (Might be redundant to some)
    – Confused – Anagram
    Oily Slime Object + C (Lost 100 off its tail)
    – Bio Jelly Cosmetics

    – No Comment as only 1 person attempted and got it correct.

    4) Gulpers & Sago , Heroes has it.
    Heroes has it – Heroes has SUPER POWER!.
    Gulpers – Fish/Ikan
    Sago – Sago lah…/Tepung Sagu
    What does Fish+Sago =? Keropok Leko/Lekor, thus, what i am looking for is
    LEKO SUPER POWER!…

    – No Comment as only 1 person attempted and got it correct. Lame? opss.. Sorry 🙂


  21. I received many comments on these questions, some positive and negative, all i can say is thanks for the feedback. But i do believe that some must open up to any type of questions, whether its literal thinking or general knowledge. About general knowledge, it is hard to know it all, and all we can do it to expose to more and other types of Q and learn. I hope more would try my type/kind of questions in the future, a little low on feedback/attempts. Just thought to join in the fun


  22. As for CKoh/Ckloh comment, i do believe, at any hunts, dictionary/thesaurus is required. There is no rule for Thunt, all if fair game, i know you are a good sifu/masters, i accept your feedback for positive motivation to improve, but i do hope you could also keep an open mind and try any Thunt Q’s available out there.oklah.. gtg for sleep. Done with house cleaning + lemang + tomorrow is RAYA.Happy holidays guys.i think wrting long comments in blog have prone for ERROR message, weird.Regards-Hadi


  23. Q5
    Lob reduces unusual effect into place.

    No attempt for the question.

    I tried to make this very fair. In fact the answer is already in the question. Place? The only place in the 80 answers is Maran.

    Answer: Maran@09

    Lob = L-O-B
    reduces = deletion indicator
    unusual = ABNORMAL
    Lob reduces unusual = ANRMA

    effect into = anagram indicator for ANRMA
    place = MARAN (as a confirmation for the anagram)


  24. Selamat Hari AidilFitri, hadi!
    Glad to see that you are enjoying yourself in revealing your answers and explanations. I am sure you will get used to the mixed feelings – expected from such a varied audience you get in blogs.

    Everyone can learn something from all these contributions, discussions and viewpoints.

    hadi, I can see and respect your viewpoint that there are styles and that there are styles. I also believe humans being humans will always be adaptive to circumstances – an instinctive survival trait.

    And from all of that – we grow.


  25. 1)You might see it on turkish sand.
    You might see it – See it = Anagram
    Turkish Sand – Kum
    On + Kum = Kumon.

    Agree with you, hadi. We can all learn a few foreign languages once in a while. You do appear to be quite a traveled guy – must have been to some very interesting Turkish beaches recently! (Or planning to?).

    BTW, if you did mean it to be a language, you would spell it with a capital T, otherwise, it would make some solvers think that you have intentionally “decapped” it so that it will be part of a “fodder” to be anagrammed.

    It is quite true that redundancy is often frowned upon within the treasure hunt community. Even I still struggle to keep things relevant 100%. There is a balance between “grammatical” needs and “simplicity”.

    Some words are needed to make things grammatically correct and often that end up as being regarded as “redundant”. This problem arises because we are Malaysians – who often do ignore the grammars even in normal conversation. Then, what to do? Try-lo!

    ckoh is a 100% proponent of simplicity and he has mastered the art of doing it in treasure hunt clues. That’s why we enjoy reading his contributions. Everyone can pick a few tips from his style. hadi, you can too. And enjoy the difference.


  26. 2) A Carolina Tight End with distress or she ran behind to get the sign!.
    A – Singular,
    Caroline Tight End – NFL Player, A carolina player is also refered to as a panther (Caroline Panthers).
    With Distress – Alarm.
    Thus – Panther Alarm

    Or – She ran behind to get the sign
    She – Her
    Ran behind – Pant ; Pant+Her = Panter
    Get the sign (Somehow some thesaurus shows sign as ALARM). – Add Alarm.

    It was indeed very generous of you to give two clues to one answer. This style is very welcomed by solvers. Main clue with confirming clue – applause.
    Will certainly encourage you to maintain this style.

    What you may want to do further is to keep the second clue a little more subtle and a little less wordy – not so obvious and yet simple. The OR followed by a very long sentence is too obvious and too lengthy.
    Or maybe you were so excited about both clues that you were could not resist showcasing both!

    Nothing really wrong – but it would have been more challenging if it had been less obvious that there was a confirming clue.

    The first clue is fair to a point – general knowledge required but not narrowed down. Some hint that it is a sport or some American player – may have helped. Again, I suppose, you are very keen to share your interest in NFL or NBA with us! We welcome that.

    SHE = HER!
    Debatable because of the context of the sentence.
    A grammatical debate. But most would get what you meant. Something female.

    RAN = PANT.
    That’s something new to me. I would think that “ran” was just an act of moving, but whether one “pants” or not would be the role of “how one ran” – an adjective would be needed to qualify that.

    BEHIND.
    What I often struggled most with are positional clues like this one. I often cannot figure if “A” is behind “B” or is “B” behind “A”. A personal problem. And this is an opportunity for me to sort this out, once and for all. Thanks for it.

    What made it more challenging for me, in your clue was A and B were together “behind” “BEHIND”, or were they “ahead” of “Behind”? Or were “A and B” “in front of” “behind”? Or maybe they were “Before” “behind”?

    SIGN=ALARM.
    This one is fair. It not only suggests that one should look for another “word” for “sign”, but it also means, literally, that’s the “sign”.


  27. 3) That oily slime object lost 100 off its tail, confused?
    – That = To show that the answer is after this (Might be redundant to some)
    – Confused – Anagram
    Oily Slime Object + C (Lost 100 off its tail)
    – Bio Jelly Cosmetics

    “That”
    You are quite right about this. Not needed.

    The rest of the clue was perfect! I am sure also enjoyable to those who tried it. Well done!


  28. Q5
    Lob reduces unusual effect into place.

    ckoh: what do you think? I had a hand in this one.
    Curious to know if you have got over with the debate with whether it should be “letters” or “word”?


  29. (I have been trying to post it 3 times already!)
    4) Gulpers & Sago , Heroes has it.
    Heroes has it – Heroes has SUPER POWER!.
    Gulpers – Fish/Ikan
    Sago – Sago lah…/Tepung Sagu
    What does Fish+Sago =? Keropok Leko/Lekor, thus, what i am looking for is
    LEKO SUPER POWER!…

    hadi, you are definitely a very cultured person – with lots of experience in life – eager to share. Here is another example – your culinary skills! Unfortunately, you would also be alone in having the ability to see through the “ingredients” without even smelling, touching or looking at the finished product!

    Heroes HAVE it!
    I am sure you meant this. We agree, they do!
    And such a clue would have got solvers hunting for
    “containers”, I am sure! Good trick, only if it had worked!


  30. POSITIONS!
    Hey, ckoh, please chat about this. BEHIND, IN FRONT, AHEAD, BEFORE, AFTER, etc…. what’s your position on these?


  31. Question:
    Are the following phrases commonly used as anagram indicators?
    1. See it (Q1)
    2. Effect into (Q5)

    Thanks.


  32. Ah, I see my name mentioned a couple of times. So sorry — I haven’t been coming here over. Been busy getting fat over the holidays. Besides, I finally took the trouble creating my own blog. And yes, in spite of the idiot that I am, I have successfully created that blog!!

    I see ce5nt has done a very good review of hadi’s work. I doubt that I am able to add very much more to ce5nt’s comments. However, to repeat, I am not a great fan of unnecessarily-long sentences as treasure hunt questions. “YOU MIGHT SEE IT…” meant to be an anagram indicator is somewhat “wreckless” in my opinion. Of course it can conveniently fall within the ambit of “my style” as correctly pointed out by hadi.

    Whenever I set questions, I try very hard to be economical with my words. So for example, the question can become something SHORT like this: PERHAPS ON TURKISH SAND?

    The other “objection” of course is on the Turkish word. As I said, I can accept general knowledge in hunt questions, but be sure that it is really general — something that MANY (but not necessarily all) would know. I am convinced that a very small proportion of Malaysian as a whole would know KUM = SAND. Therefore, this question is about googling skill.

    Yes, we do bring along dictionaries etc when we hunt. I notice some people bring along laptops too. So I suppose I have to reluctantly admit that some CoCs do give “ungeneral” general knowledge questions too.

    The type of questions that I like to conjure up are those filled with tricks. They may end up being amusing sometimes. They involve things that people take for granted, for example; y’know, things like when I say a person is blind, I might mean that he is only blind in one eye (and can see with the other); when a man goes around in a wheelchair, people take for granted that he can’t walk; or when a person introduces himself as Mr Singh, you tend to forget that there are many others with the same name (www.ckoh1965.blogspot.com).

    to be continued…


  33. Oops!… there is suddenly some urgent cases on my desk! I’ll clear ’em out for a bit and I’ll come back to comment again.

    I had something at the back of my mind about ckloh’s question too, but refrained from commenting. Now that I know ce5nt had a hand in it, I am more willing to comment. But it has a wait a little bit. Be back later…


  34. OK, lunch break now…

    About ckloh’s question, I’ve got 2 comments:

    The first, of course, is that “LOB” which are intended as 3 independent letters. They are therefore deleted one at a time — in no particular order — from “ABNORMAL”. It is not so much as whether I got over it or not. I have made my stand very clear on this issue. I am willing to accept the logic behind it, but I don’t really agree with this trick; that is all. Incidentally, a master recently wrote to me about this issue (having read my comments on it), and also agreed that the trick is technically correct; but not elegant. Of course, then again, not everyone is overly concerned about elegance…

    Now the other thing I want to comment on Q5 is about the anagram indicator — “effect into”. I have often wondered if all of us REALLY understand what anagrams are. Well, I suppose we do. However, it seems that we are not very clear on the indicators. What exactly would qualify as the ANAGRAM indicators? I don’t know if this has been discussed before, but let me give her what I personally understand it to be:

    1) ALTERED/CHANGED
    The indicator tells the solver that the word has been changed from its original version: DISGUISED; CHANGED; MIXED; ALTERED; MODIFIED; NEW; FRESH etc.

    2) SUBJECT TO BE CHANGED
    The indicator tells the solver that the word is subject to change(s): MAY BE; MIGHT BE; CAN etc.

    3) UNORIGINAL/DEFECTIVE
    The indicator tells the solver that the word is not its original version: FAULTY; CONTERFEIT; BROKEN etc.

    4) “DISTURBED”
    The indicator tells the solver that the word has been modified: SHAKEN; MOULDED; CREATED etc.

    I guess some of those headings above could be grouped up together. Apart from those, I have also discussed some CoCs with the tendency of using the question mark (?) as the anagram indicator.

    A master wrote to me to express his unhappiness with the indicator “NOISILY” used in a recent hunt. One has to wonder in which category of the above would the word “NOISILY” fit in.

    But coming back to Q5, we have “EFFECT INTO” which I don’t quite agree also. The word “INTO” on its own is a well-known container clue, of course. But together with “EFFECT” it may bring about a different meaning.

    In order to deal with this problem, we need to investigate the meaning of that word “EFFECT”. That word is a noun. From the above categories, we notice that most anagram indicators are either verbs (eg. changed, modified, created etc) or adjectives (eg. faulty, counterfeit, broken). I would have been happier had the word been “AFFECT” (an verb) and not “EFFECT”. To “AFFECT” something would be to do something — perhaps to change or create something, which I think if more agreeable as an anagram indicator.

    Oops!… need food!!… will be back later.

    to be continued…


  35. Now where was I?… ah yes, EFFECT vs AFFECT.

    I wanted to say that in spite of the above analysis, at the end of the day, I must come down to earth and consider the audience. renroc has correctly pointed out that the term “bungalow” is often wrongly used as in “double storey bungalow”. But because almost everyone is using it wrongly, then it becomes something that is accepted at correct anyway! By the way, I gave stict instruction to my employees that I will not accept “double storey bungalow” in reports to be signed by me!

    In the end, I have to accept that not everyone is obsessed with accuracy the way I am. Quite often they don’t really care. But sometimes, I suspect they do notice small inaccuracies or inconsistencies in hunt questions, but ignore them anyway. They’d pass the questions as “OK” in consideration of us being Malaysians.

    Masters ce5nt and 2R1I have demonstrated their skills by solving even “wrong” questions posted here time and again. This is obviously one area where I still need to learn from ’em masters. And I will get the opportunity to do so when I hunt with them in November! Please, masters, don’t punish me too harshly when I fail to perform!


  36. Well, ckloh sent me an interesting email shortly ago. He said EFFECT can also be a verb. I looked the word up in a dictionary (I didn’t do that earlier!) and to my surprise he is correct! Indeed that word is normally used as a noun, but may also be used as a verb. So in this case, I have to admit that “effect” should therefore qualify as an anagram indicator.


  37. Interesting question posed by ce5nt on positional clues, i.e. BEHIND, AFTER, BEFORE etc. I will reply later this evening. WORK!!


  38. I meant to go running today, but it’s drizzling again now. So I guess I have a good excuse to be here giving my 2 cents instead!

    Now, about this so-called “positional” clues. As I’ve said several times here, I’d like to be fair when I set questions. Positional clues should always be accurate. If the setter means a particular “positional” clue word to have more than one possible configurations, then he should not use clue words that are meant to be exact. Let me explain.

    Consider this question from my past hunt:

    Q1) Between the first nine digits and the last zeroes to get number two.

    A1) ECO @ ????

    Explanation:

    FIRST Nine Digits = ND; LAST zeroeS = S.

    The question tells the solver to put something BETWEEN that ND and S to get NUMBER TWO. Most people would configure like this:

    ND ??? S = NUMBER TWO

    Which is where I had intended to trick the solver. In fact, the solution lies in the other possible configuration:

    S ??? ND = NUMBER TWO

    From this second configuration, the solver will see that those question marks should be ECO, so that when it goes BETWEEN the S and ND, it would become SECOND, which is NUMBER TWO.

    The positional clue in this question is BETWEEN. Notice that BETWEEN is not exact. It is up to the solver to decide or try out which configuration will fit to arrive at the answer. Another example of a “non-exact” positional clue word is ADD, because one can ADD before or after a word.

    Let me post this first, and I will continue…


  39. Notice that in the above question, I used the word BETWEEN. The intended the answer — ECO — to go BETWEEN the S and ND to form NUMBER TWO. I did not specify which of the S and ND is in front; and which is at the back. All I said was BETWEEN. Therefore both those configurations satisfied the requirement of BETWEEN, but only one will lead to the intended answer.

    If ce5nt had encountered this question in an actual hunt, he might have been baffled for a bit. He might or might not figure it out in the end, but I’m sure he’d agree with the explanation.

    Now we turn our attention to hadi’s question (we will only concentrate on the second part):

    Q) … or she ran behind to get the sign!

    Here we have a completely different situation. That word — BEHIND — is a very specific word. It MUST be behind, i.e. it CANNOT be AHEAD. So let us see if we can understand this question.

    Now, the first thing to consider is that we have two “objects” to arrange to become the intended answer. We have SHE and RAN, and then followed by the word BEHIND. In this case, ce5nt’s confusion is justified. And it’s not because he is hopeless when it comes to orientation. It is because the question is faulty. Had the sentence been, say, “she BEHIND ran…” then the question becomes very clear — no ambiguity whatsoever. Master ce5nt would know for sure that the “SHE” must be behind (after) the “RAN”.

    I think it is unfair to burden the solvers with guessing the CoC’s intention whether “SHE RAN BEHIND” means “SHE BEHIND RAN” or “RAN BEHIND SHE”.

    In fact, as pointed out by ce5nt, it can also mean SHE and RAN — together — goes behind a word found on the signage to form the answer.

    For example, ????SHERAN = SIGN.

    Where the ???? is found on a signage.


  40. Whenever a positional clue is given in a question, there shouldn’t be any ambiguity. It would be unfair to the solver.

    Q) I would simply come after to be hard.

    A) SOL Departmental Store

    Explanation:

    I would SIMPLY = ID (actually, I’D)

    The ID should “come after” something found on the signage, to be “HARD”. So ID comes after SOL to become SOLID. I don’t think ce5nt is lost here. He would know that I+D (together) comes after SOL to become SOLID.

    There is no way the question is about the possibilities of “I” coming after “WOULD” — WOULDI; or “WOULD” coming after “I” — IWOULD.

    So now, we can make the comparison between the two:

    “she ran BEHIND…”

    and

    “I would (simply) COME AFTER…”

    Do you see the striking similarity?


  41. ABC!
    I knew ckoh will oblige us with his positional views.
    tqvm, my friend.

    It is clear where he stands. Let’s see if we all do.
    Let’s try these. What would your answers be?

    Look at the pattern “ABC”:

    1)Is A behind B or in front of B?
    2)Is C behind B or in front of B?

    3)Is A ahead of B?
    4)Is C ahead of B?

    5)Is A placed before B?
    6)Is C placed before B?

    7)Place C before B (what would the pattern be?)
    8)Place C after B (what would the pattern be?)


  42. OK, I will try!

    1) A is in front of B — because when we read or write in both English and Malay, we do it from left to right. Therefore, it makes sense to treat the left as coming first and consider it as ahead or in front.

    2) C is behind B — for the same explanation to (1) above.

    3) Yes, A is ahead of B.

    4) No, C is behind B (not ahead).

    5) Yes, A is placed before B — when we read as in a word or a sentence, always the from the extreme left. Hence, the left before the right.

    6) No, C is placed after B (not before).

    7) Placing C BEFORE B should result in CB. In this case, the position of A was not specified, so assuming that A was undisturbed, the resulting pattern of “C BEFORE B” would be ACB.

    8) Placing C AFTER B (with A undisturbed) would result in the original position – ABC.

    So how have I done? Did I pass?… hehehe


  43. Oops! What have I done? Where did that smiley come from?… hehehehe. That was supposed to have been (8).


  44. In the morning today before noon, I received a mail from claire.

    cklohtreasure # 1 is broken with perfect explanation. Well done, claire!

    Now, I see what ce5nt mentioned, the thrill of clicking the link, and the right treasure appear in front of the screen.

    Congrats to claire again!


  45. ABC encore?
    Let’s hear a few more opinions? All agree with ckoh? Or are there different viewpoints out there?


  46. Hey ckloh,

    I notice that you always have problems with your dates, huh? No, I don’t mean dates as in going out with girls — pakto. I mean dates as in the calendar dates? Anyway, 17th October is not a Friday. It’s a Wednesday.


  47. 17th October is Friday..on a different year.
    He didn’t put the year..guess its ‘fair’ game
    hahahaha…

    i am back….after a long break….
    must..go..back..to work.. emails…. hunts.. waa.. a lot of comment.. behind..infront..after…. more ‘virtual hunts’.. too dizzy to think…

    -hadi


  48. ckoh,

    Thank you for highlighting the ‘dates’ problem.

    By the way, I did not know that you come from Malta? Confused? Oh, just have a look on the profile on your blog.


  49. Hehehe… Oh you don’t know what I’ve been through this last couple of day, ce5nt! I saw that “Malta” last night, but didn’t know how to remedy it! I had to recall how I set it up in the first place! I was sure that I clicked on “Malaysia” the first time, but perhaps the mouse accidentally went to “Malta” instead.

    Mike would tell you how I’ve been disturbing him to help me out every now and then. Well, it’s his fault for getting me into this!

    But I spent a while and finally found my way back to the starting point. And so, I am back in Malaysia again now! I am struggling to deal with some of those HTML stuff. I think I am beginning to understand a bit.

    You wouldn’t believe this, but 2 days ago I actually successfully signed up for the Statcounter — meant to track the visitors to my blog! Such a nice feeling to have been able to do it on my own. Still need to understand the information provided though. Unfortunately, right now I can count the number of visitors by the fingers on my hands!… hehehe. I am not such a popular person you know!

    Am still trying to find out what is “cookie”. The last time I checked, “cookie” meant something in the order of Chipsmore that my JJ loves so much.

    Well, thanks for visiting my blog. Hope it’s been interesting reads for you. I’m not such a good writer; should have taken up some sort of intensive writing course years ago. But I never thought of doing this blog thing. I will improve… or at least I will die trying…


  50. Just to comment a bit on Q5
    (L-O-B – ABNORMAL) Anagram = MARAN

    TECHNICAL
    – base on comments it is technically right for this type of clue, (addition or deletion threating the given wordplay word as independent letters)

    ELEGANT
    – however, some might say it is not an elegant ways of crafting clues by trying to catch solvers with mathematic equation not the simplicity of trick.

    Understand some might not agree with me, but this is my comment.

    Lob reduces unusual effect into.
    – I would agree this is not an elegant way of crafting clues, although it is technical right.

    Lob reduces unusual effect into place.
    – I am not saying this is elegant, but I would say a fair and square clue, where there is a very fair chance for the user to solve it. And it is simple in nature.

    The simplicity is there. Place? Maran. Everyone can answer it if this is the question, but to makes things slighlty more challenging, a technical right clues are additional given to confuse. The simplicitiy of the clue/trick is not on

    Clue 1
    – Lob reduces unusual effect into

    but rather on

    Clue 2
    – Place

    The above explanation is given as I would like to disclose the answers for Q6-Q8. All are similar types, as mentioned above. Reason, is I am trying to practice crafting a few variation of this type of clues, from ce5nt encouragement.

    Q6

    When evenly taken out from a few, it becomes a mark of a vehicle part.

    Answer: FULDA@45

    When evenly taken out from a few
    (H-N – HANDFUL)

    It becomes (ANAGRAM)

    = FULDA

    Mark of a vehicle part
    = FULDA
    There is only a few answers that is related to vehichle part brand (mark), in this case FULDA is a tyre brand.

    Q7

    Some superhuman mutation success before rune wears down superhuman mutation authority.

    Answer: Pesuruhjaya Sumpah

    Some superhuman = SUPEHU
    MUTATION (Anagram) = PESURUH
    SUCCESS = JAYA

    rune wears down superhuman mutation
    (R-U-N-E – SUPERHUMAN)

    Mutation (ANAGRAM)

    = SUMPAH

    Authority
    = PESURUHJAYA SUMPAH
    There are only 2 answers that suggest authority.

    Q8

    Decoration without hotel interior makes cooler.

    Answer: Air Cond@28

    Decoration without hotel interior
    (DECORATION – O-T-E)

    Makes (ANAGRAM)

    = Air Cond

    Cooler
    = Air Cond
    This is basically a gift question.

    Hadi, managed to get Q8 correctly, and his tembak on Q6 and Q7 are not corect. The rest, I supposed from the surface of it feel that it is complicated and don’t attempt it.

    However, 2R1I did give some comments on the questions for improvement. Thanks 2R1I. And of course, ce5nt, who is my ‘test driver’ for al the questions and give valuable feedback.


  51. ckloh,

    One of the best ways to set “fair” questions is to put yourself in the solver’s shoes. I can’t help thinking that when you said “fair”, you are looking at the question from you own point of view — from the view of a person who already know the answer!

    Since you intended the answer is “MARAN”, to you mind ONLY that word “MARAN” can be equated to “place”. But if you had spent just a bit of time thinking from the solver’s point of view, then maybe you would have seen then “place” may be referring to, say, New York, Bangsar and Java. In fact, “place” is so wide that it can also refer to, say, Oasis, Ourdoor, or even Right Here! So don’t dwell too much of that word “place”, because it is not really a great help!

    I didn’t try the rest of the questions. I have not read the rest of the explanation, but I’m seeing the one for Q6 now. And again, you are approaching the question from your own point of view. Always remember to approach it from the solver’s point of view.

    To YOU, when you said delete “evenly” from HANDFUL, YOU take that to mean take away the H and N, because those letters are the first and third ones in the word HANDFUL. I haven’t been doing school maths for a very long time now, but the last time I checked, 1 and 3 were ODD numbers, not EVEN.

    And even if you did set “When ODDLY taken from…”, it is still unfair to the solver. YOU, knowing the answer, would take away the H and N without thinking, almost, and to leave ADFUL to be anagrammed. But a person who don’t already know the answer will look at that word HANDFUL and will take away H, N, F & L because F is the 5th letter, and L is the 7th letter — ODD numbers…


  52. ckoh, thanks for the 2 cents. I am strongly agree with you that place doesn’t help much if no answers are provided. But with an answer sectors provided, and the clue ‘place’ I did try to ensure that there is only a few qualify as ‘place’. If this is not the case, I will elaborate more, but seems that in the answer stretch, no other answers that can be a strong case for ‘place’. This is my opinion.

    Just like in a real hunt, when you COC a hunt, and you want to refer to an eatery, but there are a few restaurants, there, you will tend to indicate more like spicy, eatery place to indicate tom yam. But if the answer stretch have just one restaurant, a very general eatery is more than sufficient.

    Let me further explain on this.

    When evenly taken out from a few
    (H-N – HANDFUL)

    When evenly = H-N (from when, 2nd letter and 4th letter)
    taken out indicates deletion indicator
    A few = Handful

    (H-N – HANDFUL)


  53. Granted, ckloh. Trouble is, in THIS particular sector, you can also find New York, Bangsar, Java, Oasis, Outdoor and Right Here! I have not googled up the other possible answers, but I have a feeling that I can probably come up with more names of places from the sector.

    Oh, I see your point now on “when evenly”. Good job there; I am defeated! A better way to explain the “taken out” is like this: HANDFUL – H – N = ADFUL. Now I change my stand, weldone my friend.


  54. Didn’t consider previously Java, Oasis, Outdoor and Right here! can be term as place. Only think of New Your and Bangsar.

    I have to agree to you then, more words needed to describe the place.


  55. IT IS ALL SO ABC.

    1)Is A behind B or in front of B?

    When you study the series, the numerical position of the letters are increasing in value, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on.

    Therefore, A is numerically behind B.
    But ckoh thinks A is in front of B.
    How can that be? When it is numerically weaker?
    To be in front, it has to be numerically stronger,
    which C is.

    So, I say, A is behind B.

    2)Is C behind B or in front of B?
    Let’s take a look at a side of a car.
    When you are facing it,the headlights are on your right and the tail lights are on your left.

    If “C” represents the headlights, that would be in the front of the car. But if “C” represented the tail lights, that would be in the back of the car.
    So, if the middle portion of the car was “B”, where “C” is, will depends on what you think “C” represents.

    So, C can be behind or in front of B depending on where “A” is. That is, on which side of the car, you are looking at.

    3)Is A ahead of B?
    No. the head of B is still B.

    4)Is C ahead of B?
    Same argument as NO. 3.

    5)Is A placed before B?
    Don’t really know. They could have been placed at the same time and not one before the other or one after the other.

    You see, the dictionary defines “before” as something about TIME and not POSITION. e.g. “She came here before George did”.

    6)Is C placed before B?
    Same argument as No.5.

    7)Place C before B (what would the pattern be?)
    A, then C, then B. : ACB.

    8)Place C after B (what would the pattern be?)
    A, then B, then C : as it was.

    Have I got more people fired up and want to speak out now?


  56. I watched my girl, Jamie Jasmine, struggled when she first learned her ABC. It was such a task to remember the order of the letters of the alphabets. She also went through the same ordeal when she learned writing from 1 to 10.

    Looking at the first 3 letters — ABC — in their correct SEQUENCE, the “A” comes first. I therefore consider that “A” is the FIRST, the HEAD, the LEADER of the other letters. It is AHEAD — in the ALPHABETICAL SEQUENCE.

    We are talking about the SEQUENCE here. It is nither comparable with the location of the headlights nor the tail lights.

    Q1) Burma without a leader?
    A1) YANMAR Diesel Engine

    Burma is now known as Myanmar. When we write out Myanmar, letter by letter in the correct SEQUENCE, we write the letter “M” first, then followed by the “Y”, then the “A”, “N”, “M”, “A”, “R”.

    Looking at the SEQUENCE of how the letters are written, that first “M” is the LEADER. If without that leader, we would get YANMAR.

    Q2) Hopper without a tail?
    A2) Kangaro @ Kenglian

    The “Hopper” refers to the Kangaroo. Again, looking at the letters written in the correct SEQUENCE, that last “O” is the tail. That’s why if we omit that “O”, we would end up with the “Kangaro”.

    I must investigate the meaning of before/after in the dictionary. But to ME, before and after can be used to refer to what comes — before or after — in a SEQUENCE. To expand the idea to include several letters grouped together:

    Q3) Harmed by a bee, by adding the trio AFTER R.
    A3) NG Electronics

    That word “adding” is not a specific positional clue. “Adding” could be in front or at the back. But that word “AFTER” is specific — it can’t be BEFORE. Looking at the correct SEQUENCE in the alphabetical order, the “trio” AFTER R, is STU. That “STU” is added to the “NG” (which is the required answer here) to become STUNG, which agrees with “HARMED BY A BEE” (obeying the grammatical tense).


  57. Still thinking about SEQUENCE, it is actually about TIME also.

    When I was a boy, I saw Star Wars for the very first time. And even at that age, I was an annoying inquisitive creature. I wondered aloud where and when it all started. I wanted to know why Obiwan Kenobi went into hiding in the first place; where did Darth Vader come from?

    Little did I know that Star Wars was the fourth SEQUEL of a 6-SEQUEL story. Mr Lucas said that back then we didn’t have to technology to create all the special effects. Had he proceeded to make the movie on the first sequel then, he said that movie would have been lousy without the special effects!

    So NOW we know that Anakin Skywalker came BEFORE Darth (Lord) Vader, and that happened just shortly BEFORE his twin children were born. His son, Luke, grew up to become a Jedi AFTER Yoda taught him about the “force” in a depressing swampy planet. But BEFORE that, he met his sister Leia, and Han Solo, and that hairy creature which I can never remember its name.

    Above all, I think Mr Lucas is overdoing it. When I brought my nephew to the “Phantom Manace”, the poor boy was so confused what all those fighting was about. To be quite honest, I had to watch it a second time to get a better idea, yet I still don’t really understand it!


  58. Ce5nt,

    This is brilliant. I took some time to digest this. At first, I am very surprised, as my answers are same as ckoh, all 8 of them.

    Let me tell you what I understand from this. Treasure Hunt Cryptic Clues are all about literal thinking and lateral thinking.

    For example,
    Limbo Rock
    – literally can means a song, a type of dance ..

    Limbo Rock
    – laterally means anagram of limbo, which the answer is Mobil.

    Thus, for this question, and if both the author of the song Limbo Rock and Mobil found in the stretch, technically both are correct answers.

    To avoid such things happen, a stronger word need to be used to ensure that there is only one meaning.

    On your example, 1-6,
    1-2) behind
    3-4) ahead
    5-6) placed before

    are not strong words to indicate positioning.

    Behind can view numerically, as well as to which direction you are refering to.

    Ahead is a cryptic indicator which means the first letter of.

    Placed before to be more accurate is refer to the timing of the placing.

    If we want to use before, ahead or placed before in crafting clues as POSITIONING CLUES, it might open to other possibility of answers.

    To be very sure to indicate POSITIONING and nothing else
    7-8) Place A before B, Place C after B

    Never thought of that, now I know why sometime you hesitate to use the word before in crafting.


  59. ce5nt,

    Like ckoh, I still think that A is in front of B.
    You mentioned that A (being the 1st) is numerically weaker than B (the 2nd) and therefore cannot be in front of B. While ‘1’ can be considered as being numerically weaker than ‘2’, isn’t ‘1st’ in front of
    ‘2nd’? (or are you hoping that Man. Utd will be in front of Liverpool at the end of the season ?) :o)


  60. ckloh,

    “If we want to use before, ahead or placed before in crafting clues as POSITIONING CLUES, it might open to other possibility of answers.”

    How so? Let us have some (past?) questions/answers to support this claim. To me “before” is before, it can’t be “after”.

    “To be very sure to indicate POSITIONING and nothing else
    7-8) Place A before B, Place C after B”

    This is what we can categorise as wishful thinking. If we see it at all, we would most probably see it in one of those DIY instruction manuals for assembling portable baby cots. Hunt questions are normally not so straightforward, although the CoC of STFOGA may disagree with me…


  61. agree with ckoh on ABC.


  62. ckoh,

    “If we want to use before, ahead or placed before in crafting clues as POSITIONING CLUES, it might open to other possibility of answers.”

    How so? Let us have some (past?) questions/answers to support this claim. To me “before” is before, it can’t be “after”.

    How about this?

    First fashion ahead of it.

    The intended answer is
    First fashion = F
    ahead of it = FIT

    However, if there is another answer

    FAI Industry, would you accept it?
    First fashion = F
    a = A
    head of it = I


  63. On ‘before’, some might not agree, but to me, before is quite subjective. Below is the explanation.

    Year
    —-
    BC=======AD
    3 2 1 0 1 2 3

    Year 1 is before Year 2
    Year 2 is before Year 3

    if we refer to AD

    Year 3 is before Year 2
    Year 2 is before Year 1

    if we refer to BC

    So, to me
    Year 2 before Year 1 is correct.
    And
    Year 1 before Year 2 is correct too.

    All depends on either we refer it to AD or BC.

    Number
    ——

    -VE=======+VE
    3 2 1 0 1 2 3

    The above explanation apply to positive, negative numbers. And it apply to other situation too, in my opinion. Which before which. is depends on which measurement, direction we are talking about.

    To me, both
    2 before 1
    AND
    1 before 2

    are possibly correct.

    Lets say in one hunt, the question is

    The year before Year 2?
    You have searched all the answers thoroughly, no possible answer except Year 3. What would you do?
    a) Leave it blank
    b) Write Year 1, even though you can’t find the sign
    c) Write Year 3, the sign that you find, with the assumption that they are talking about BC.

    I would choose for option c. Not sure about other.

    What I am trying to say is, in my opinion, when we use ‘before’, it might subject to assumption.

    When we talk about

    1) place B before A
    We are pretty sure that it is BA, can’t be anything else.

    2) B before A
    As the explanation above, I would say both AB or BA is possibly correct, depends on what direction, measurement. assumption we are talking about.

    At least I am not 100% sure that it is BA like the earlier scenario.


  64. ckloh,

    Sometimes, the way your mind works amazes me. Why is it so hard for you to understand the present debate?

    We all know that sometimes it is possible that we may find more than one answers within the same question sector. It might arise because of:

    1) CoC did not think of the other possible — but equally valid — explanation to the answer;

    2) CoC did it on purpose — that he intended that both those answers would get full score;

    3) CoC is a lousy one — he did a sloppy job, and couldn’t care less of (1) & (2) above.

    The example you’ve given here has nothing to do with our present debate. I have long acknowledged that it is possible to have more than one answer to a question. But here we are looking for the other possibility where “BEFORE” can become “AFTER”.

    Let us analyse your example:

    Q) First fashion ahead of it.

    You deciphered FIRST Fashion = F

    AHEAD means that “F” comes BEFORE the “IT”, and so you arrived at “FIT”. Fine, no problem here; we can accept this a one possible solution.

    In the second approach, you’ve maintained the “F”. But now you have separated the “A” of “ahead” (I will comment further on this later), and then taken “head of it” like this:

    HEAD of It = I.

    NOW, this is where you’ve failed to see the point of our debate. This second solution does not demonstrate how “BEFORE” can become “AFTER”. “BEFORE is still before. Except that you are approaching the solution by what we call the “charade” theme:

    F + A + I = FAI.

    The “F” is still BEFORE the A and I.

    I will post this and continue later…


  65. EPL and ABC – upside down thinking.

    renroc, Gunners are in pole position, often marked as “1” in a 2-D table. Because they have 25 points (at this stage) – the most points.

    In the world of descending order, 1, which is numerically less than all other numbers (except 0), is perceived to be superior because of other real factors – in this case, the total points accumulated so far.

    In the sport of Formula 1, if you imagine that “ABC” were 3 cars lined up for the race, is “C” the pole position or “A”?

    At most winners’ ceremony, podiums are used. Notice that “B” the middle one, is always higher than “A” and “A” is higher than “C”? So which is behind which?
    “A” is shorter and lower than “B” – so “A” is behind “B”!

    In treasure hunt, the team that scores the most points and wins the tie breaks, wins the contest – and for winning, they are placed at a position labelled “1” but will almost always, be the last to be announced.

    The others are announced BEFORE the winner is heralded. And the winners are BEHIND in the announcer’s list. Although, they are AHEAD in the
    total scores!

    So, what is before (time) is really in front (position) but can be behind the rest (position – depending on what you are referring to).

    And the suffering continues …


  66. Sorry about the delay in continuing this comment…

    “On ‘before’, some might not agree, but to me, before is quite subjective…”

    It is quite subjective if you are not seeing straight. Let us be simple and see the problem as in a SEQUENCE — which one comes first and which one comes later. Don’t cloud your mind with AD or BC, because it doesn’t matter! Besides, the AD and BC has nothing to do with our present debate.

    You are saying that if you looked at the years based on AD calendar, 100 is BEFORE 10 (even though 10 has a smaller numerical value); whereas if you looked at the BC calendar, 10 is BEFORE 100. You take these two opposing outcomes as the possibility of “BEFORE” becoming “AFTER”.

    BUT! YOU ARE WRONG! In both scenario, you have strengthened my case — that what comes first in a SEQUENCE is BEFORE (forget about AD or BC). So to repeat, BEFORE is BEFORE. It can’t be AFTER. Whatever comes first MUST be BEFORE; it is the FIRST, AHEAD, LEADER — AD or BC. And it necessarily follows that what is ahead of the rest, the one that is the leader, should reasonably be in FRONT.


  67. WHAT’S THE POSITION?
    I guess the main thing to consider here is that positional words are not easy to interpret i.e. were they referring to physical positions or of positions in TIME?

    “IN FRONT”, “AHEAD” and “BEHIND” often conflict with “BEFORE” and “AFTER” when the context is not clear.

    Here are the popular conclusions I gather from most:

    In the sequence “ABC”:

    “A” is in front of “B” is the same as
    “A” is
    before “B” and is the same as
    “A” is
    ahead of “B”.

    “C” is behind “B” is the same as
    “C” is
    after “B”.

    And when we start to think in the “TIME” context:

    AHEAD, IN FRONT could mean “what’s next” to me.

    Consider:
    “Look what’s ahead! See what’s in front of your life?”

    So, C is “what’s next” to me in the sequence “ABC”.
    Therefore:

    “C” is in front of “B” to me and is the same as
    “C” is
    after “B” and is the same as
    “C” is
    ahead of “B” to me.

    “Let’s leave it all behind. Don’t look at what’s past”.

    Therefore: “what’s past” is “A” to me in “ABC”:

    “A” is behind “B” is the same as
    “A” is
    before “B” to me.

    Editing Note: If you see everywhere in my comment, that’s because I was trying to see if the html code for BOLD font will work on this blog. There’s no preview option on this blog – so cannot experiment first.


  68. Sorry, ckloh : for using your blog to experiment with “html codes” … will try it on other blogs with preview functions first! Sorry!


  69. The 13th second recently set a Q where ‘A follower’ => B. This was unanimously accepted (comment by ckoh was not related to the sequence, but was on grammatical accuracy).

    In the 2003 CNY hunt, dr. clue set the following Q :

    “A follower with no degree” which was answered by 3 or 4 of the 6 competing teams, and none disagreed that ‘A follower’ => B.


  70. Oops!… somehow I can’t post the whole thing at once… Let me try to break it up in two portions, let’s see if it works:

    Wow! So it is possible to put “special effects” on the postings here too! Now I REALLY must learn about those confusing HTML stuff!

    OK, now I don’t want to be a bore here. But please allow me to respond to this latest point by ce5nt. First of all, I must say that the argument appears impeccable — in fact, very profound!

    I must confess that I didn’t major in English, but this is what I understand those words to be…

    Indeed we always hear people say something like:

    We look FORWARD to a brighter future…

    That word “FORWARD” in this case is meant to refer to the next in line of a series or sequence. It is how English sentences are constructed.

    But although we are “looking” FORWARD or AHEAD to what comes next, that doesn’t mean that that next item is IN FRONT. As a sequential progression in a chain of events, that next item is still AFTER/LAST to happen/occur. Whatever comes before it is still IN FRONT and AHEAD no matter how you look at it, and no matter how you say it.

    to be continued…


  71. Hmm… can’t work either… let me keep trying…


  72. Imagine that we want to write out the word “MOUSE”. How do we go about doing it?

    (1) THE USUAL WAY:
    M
    MO
    MOU
    MOUS
    MOUSE


  73. The letters are written one by one from the left to the right. That M comes first – ahead of all the other letters. And then O comes AFTER that and so on and so forth. M, therefore, leads all the other letters. It is written first BEFORE the rest.


  74. (2) THE JAWI WAY:
    E
    SE
    USE
    OUSE
    MOUSE


  75. Had we been taught to write this way, then I would say E comes first, and it is IN FRONT, because we write that E first BEFORE all the other letters.

    To conclude, I see FORWARD in “looking FORWARD to a brighter future…” as a DIRECTIONAL indicator. Because we are writing (and reading) from left to right, we are HEADING to the right. The right is therefore our front (where we’re heading), much the same way when we drive a car — going forward is going to the front. And when we say “LOOK BACK” in treasure hunt, we mean to say read from right to left (against the DIRECTION we write).

    But when we use BEFORE and AFTER as POSITIONAL indicators, then they must be referring to the order in a SEQUENCE. Since we write that M first, then it MUST be AHEAD/BEFORE the rest of the letters.


  76. Phew… there you go! Sorry about that, ckloh! I don’t know why it can only work that way.


  77. Oh by the way, we really must get a life, huh? What the hell are we all doing sitting in front of the computer like this on a beautiful Sunday debating what’s BEFORE and AFTER?… hehehe.


  78. SHIFT!
    Okay, people, that’s the cue to change subject!


  79. OK, this is NOT a treasure hunt problem. I am hopeless with this computer thing. Can anyone tell me how to change 2 consecutive hyphens into a single, but longer, dash?

    In some blogs, I notice that it can be done automatically — like right here in this blog. All I need to do is to type those 2 hyphens together next to each other, and then when I submit that post, it will be changed automatically into a single dash. I think it must be something to do with a setting of some sort, but I don’t know how to do it.

    The dash is useful because the writer can break up a sentence, thus allowing the privilege of emphasising your point without appearing too repetitious. It’s been said to give pace to the writing. In a way, the dash can be used in a similar way to brackets:

    The essay — not written in the best of English — tells us how a typical wage-earner tends to spend more than what he can afford, with credit cards.


  80. SHIFT2!
    OK, folks — that’s a new cue — to change subject, again!


  81. 2 Dashes Make 1 long one!
    — 3 dashes make 1 even longer one? And
    —- 4 dashes yet longer still? Let’s see if it works.


  82. NOPE!


  83. Good news! Someone taught me how to do the ‘dash’! But I haven’t tried it out yet. I suppose this gives me an excuse to write something up this evening… hehehe. I must be one of those very, very few bloggers who post daily! I’ll probably run out of things to write about pretty soon, huh? Nah… don’t bet on it!

    Oh! And I also notice some familiar names giving comments in my blog. Mercy! You people are such good friends… thanks for the support! But I guess not as interesting as treasure hunt topics, eh?


  84. Well, folks, I have successfully created beautiful ‘dashes’ in my blog now! Last night I’ve changed all those double hyphens in my essays into single long dashes.

    To those of you who are keen on the pretty em dash too, here’s how to do it. If you’re typing from the ‘blogspot’ account, there is the “html option”. When you’re in that “mode”, just type — (don’t forget to include the semi-colon too) and you will notice that when you publish the post, it will emerge as an em dash. Neat, huh?

    But unfortunately I don’t know how to use any of those “html” stuff here, because there is not such option available. Perhaps ce5nt would like to tell us how to do it. ce5nt? this is your cue… hit it, man!


  85. Oops! I just realised that it appeared as the em dash!… hehehe. Well, let me try to put it in quotes:
    em dash = “—”


  86. Arghhh!!!… OK, one more try!!

    em dash = &-#-1-5-1-; (but without all those hyphens in between)


  87. Now THAT’S mor like it!!


  88. I gotta favorite this web site it seems invaluable very beneficial.



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